John Lennon
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Is this a socialist song? I believe it is. I believe it is our Object and Principles in a song. Simplified but revolutionary.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLgYAHHkPFs
Imagine there’s no heaven
It’s easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today…Imagine there’s no countries
It isn’t hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace…You may say I’m a dreamer
But I’m not the only one
I hope someday you’ll join us
And the world will be as oneImagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world…You may say I’m a dreamer
But I’m not the only one
I hope someday you’ll join us
And the world will live as oneI remember years ago some party member told me that Lennon got a hold of a copy of the 1969 edition of Questions of the Day which gave him the basis for the lyric. Is this just hearsay or is there any credence to this rumour. Was it even a rumour?
Yes, just the music for a socialist to have played at their funeral instead of “I did it my way” ! But I doubt if Lennon was influenced by us. I think he composed it at a time (1971) when he was strongly influenced by Tariq Ali and his paper Red Dwarf (an influence also shown by Lennon’s support for the IRA). Ali was then a Trotskyist in the “International Marxist Group”. He definitely knew us and that we wanted a society with no religion, no countries, no possessions and no money. I’ve got a letter from him dated 1968 in which he says that he doesn’t think he could give “a vary illuminating talk on abolition of money to SPGB comrades” and asking if we had a pamphlet on the subject.
I love the Beatles and Lennon and Harrison’s musical legacies and that song is a particular favourite. What I find fundamental to Lennon’s philosophy especially, is that we can make the change now and that’s important.It is also worth remembering that Lennon was also particularly honest about a lot of his work and memorably told an intruder in his property whilst a documentary was being filmed, that his song did not necessarily have to have any meaning, they are just songs….. Peace.
There is a photo floating around on the internet of Lennon selling Red Mole. Also far be it from me to question artistic integrity, but “imagine no possessions” be inaccurate for SPGB, rather we would say “imagine no property (land + capital)”?
Earlier work…… You say you want a revolution Well, you know We all want to change the world You tell me that it’s evolution Well, you know We all want to change the world But when you talk about destruction Don’t you know that you can count me out Don’t you know it’s gonna be all right All right, all right You say you got a real solution Well, you know We’d all love to see the plan You ask me for a contribution Well, you know We’re doing what we can But when you want money For people with minds that hate All I can tell is brother you have to wait Don’t you know it’s gonna be all right All right, all right Ah Ah, ah, ah, ah, ah… You say you’ll change the constitution Well, you know We all want to change your head You tell me it’s the institution Well, you know You better free you mind instead But if you go carrying pictures of chairman Mao You ain’t going to make it with anyone anyhow Don’t you know it’s gonna be all right All right, all right All right, all right, all right All right, all right, all right I have to agree with that as well and can also be a nod in our direction!!
But its just a song………There is personal possession and legal possesion. So capitalists possess the means of production and land owners possess land. Perhaps Lennon is using it in it’s legal definition. SussexSocialist. Yes I like Revolution. Another of my favourites is Working Class Hero: “There’s room at the top they are are telling you still But first you must learn how to smile as you kill”
jondwhite wrote:There is a photo floating around on the internet of Lennon selling Red Mole. Also far be it from me to question artistic integrity, but “imagine no possessions” be inaccurate for SPGB, rather we would say “imagine no property (land + capital)”?If I agree with someone I dont care if he has “skeletons in the cupboard”. If someone says something I agree with I don’t look into their past for things they have said and done which don’t tally with our Object and Declaration of Principles. If Imagine was written by Red Mole or Trotsky I would still agree with it. If someone interested in socialism played Imagine to me I would give the impression that I disagreed with the words if I just attacked John Lennon’s Life
On an utterly different musical taste, another favourite band of mine is Carter USM. Now they have some brilliant lyrics, class concious and dipped on pop culture. I don’t think it makes them socialists though, but definitely in disagreement with the Status Quo, and I fully intend that pun…..!
The USA vs John Lennon is a good documentary about his years after the beatles http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pn7d_PTNBASome good interviews in it which go into his politics and affiliations. He comes across as well meaning and with a few ideas which would correspond with those of the party but he also seems very into his identity politics, national liberation struggles and some reformism. Probably partly influenced by the Maoists he was hanging around with.The article on Hippies from the socialist standard was one of my favourites from socialism or your money back.
I don’t get it! Perhaps we should ask these questions of new applicants to the party. “Have you ever had non socialist thoughts?” “Have you ever written anything non socialist?” and ” Have you ever had affiliations with any left wing groups?”. Have you ever had a delusion that a reform might help the working class?You don’t look at a Van gogh painting and disaprove of it because he was an alcoholic and wife beater. Imagine by John Lennon is revolutionary art. You either like it or you don’t.. He is a human being like the rest of us and I believe he was a socialist but thats just my opinion. No one is born a socialist. Everyone has thought of a good reform. Doesn’t make us reformist
That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying he had very muddled politics much of which was based on feelings not science. I’m also saying that he was heavily influenced by some of pals who were Maoists and of course by the politics at the time the Vietnam war. If my post had been meant as an attack on John Lennon then believe me it would have been a lot more scathing. First would have been his time in India while still with the beatles and all the dappy religous stuff that he got up to, which he later renounced. On whether he was a socialist or not I’d probably say he was, much more so than some of his pals who called themselves socialists. If only for the fact that that he advocated a moneyless, classless, stateless society. Although he was not a Marxist and had no idea of how to reach socialism. Essentially what I’m saying is he had no defined politics he had much in common with the SPGB but he was also very wrong on certain issues, while he was at his most politically active.On Imagine I used to really dislike it when I was a kid, I’d always preferred the rolling stones. It was only when I got older that I finally got the song, it was a great feeling when I actually did understand it. I’ve now become a bit of a fan of Lennon’s work after leaving the Beatles, whose music I still dislike. My favourite is probably working class hero but bring on the Lucie, gimmie some truth, God, woman is the nigger of the world and there are plenty more that I like and a few I don’t. I also agree with you that a piece of art shouldn’t be judged on it’s creators politics. However, if you are using Lennon’s songs to comment on his politics then further analysis is required.Anyway here’s a “lost” interview with Tariq Ali which gives some insight into his politics.http://www.counterpunch.org/2005/12/08/the-lost-john-lennon-interview/
TheOldGreyWhistle wrote:” Have you ever had affiliations with any left wing groups?”.This one was asked of me not sure if it’s on a form A
Again linking to other threads and discussions of the lesser evil, i see in the interview that was raised too. JL:…Like Richard Neville said, there may be only an inch of difference between Wilson and Heath but it’s in that inch that we live….TA: I don’t know about that; Labour brought in racialist immigration policies, supported the Vietnam war and were hoping to bring in new legislation against the unions.RB: It may be true that we live in the Inch of difference between Labour and Conservative but so long as we do we’ll be impotent and unable to change anything. If Heath is forcing us out of that inch maybe he’s doing us a good turn without meaning to…JL: Yes, I’ve thought about that, too. This putting us in a corner so we have to find out what is coming down on other people… Lennonism TA: How do you think we can destroy the capitalist system here in Britain, John?JL: I think only by making the workers aware of the really unhappy position they are in, breaking the dream they are surrounded by. They think they are in a wonderful, free-speaking country. They’ve got cars and tellies and they don’t want to think there’s anything more to life. They are prepared to let the bosses run them, to see their children fucked up in school. They’re dreaming someone else’s dream, it’s not even their own. They should realise that the blacks and the Irish are being harassed and repressed and that they will be next.As soon as they start being aware of all that, we can really begin to do something. The workers can start to take over. Like Marx said: ‘To each according to his need’. I think that would work well here. But we’d also have to infiltrate the army too, because they are well trained to kill us all.We’ve got to start all this from where we ourselves are oppressed. I think it’s false, shallow, to be giving to others when your own need is great. The idea is not to comfort people, not to make them feel better but to make them feel worse, to constantly put before them the degradations and humiliations they go through to get what they call a living wage.
Alan,Ed, Alen I don’t get your point. Do you agree that Imagine is a socialist song? If not, why not? Lennon’s life was very public. If our lives were that public I am sure we could quot from each other’s past and get expelled. Lennon was not in any political party. Why shouldn’t he sympathise with people and parties who are trying to expose capitalism: He didnt actual join any of them. And if being friends with a maoist excludes you from being a socialist then I am not a socialist. (McCarthyism)The drummer in my band is a Conservative! If he were alive today would you reject his Form A on the basis of the interview with TA? What did he say that was not socialist. If I was talking to Tariq Ali, John Lennon, Arther Scarghill and George Galloway and suggested that they look to the SPGB if they are dissatisfied with capitalism what would they find? An attack on their past and scathing remarks about their sincerely held views. No wonder the party is small. Someone writes a song like Imagine and party members queue up to ‘expose’ him.
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