Jeremy Corbyn to be elected Labour Leader?
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gnome wrote:No need to teach your Grandmother to suck eggs, Alan. I've probably been around the party a darn sight longer than you have and introduced quite a few more workers into membership.
OMG! This is priceless.I've been a member of this forum for three years now and this is the second time I've heard someone banging their own drum about how many socialists they themselves have created.Strangely enough, or perhaps not, the other person was a hardliner as well. Anyone remember JC?
Vin wrote:Ozymandias wrote:Global membership of WSM = 350(?)Average age of membership = 75 (?)= Atrophy…The are clear and obvious reasons why the party is small and they can be found in this thread'When we refer to people calling for revolution as clowns etc and hold the belief that we are at war with 99.9999999% of the working class. Absolute insanity. I introduced my son to our facebook to find out more about socialism and the open democratic party I belong to and his first post was censored and he was blocked. WE must remain pure.As I I say, it is blindingly obvious why we are so tiny.
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SocialistPunk wrote:gnome wrote:No need to teach your Grandmother to suck eggs, Alan. I've probably been around the party a darn sight longer than you have and introduced quite a few more workers into membership.OMG! This is priceless.I've been a member of this forum for three years now and this is the second time I've heard someone banging their own drum about how many socialists they themselves have created.Strangely enough, or perhaps not, the other person was a hardliner as well. Anyone remember JC?
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alanjjohnstone wrote:Quote:we'll tell them that we share their aspirations for a new society and suggest they listen to our alternative.So, do you do agree that those outside the party cannot all be tarred with the same brush because we do not share the same aspirations as the Tory Party (or do you say we do, because a case can be made that we do understand and sympathise with why workers sometimes vote for them although we don't agree with it) and also that no one size fits all when it comes to propaganda and we should shape our campaign in various different styles and levels of emphasis to achieve a hearing and an audience. Which has been my point all along. No doubt you may say i ignored your remark
Quote:We'll declare that all reformist parties are deluders and pretenders not deserving any sympathy or support from the working classSuch a statement is made in the explanation of our alternative, it is all a matter of how it is expressed and the context it is made in… nuancedI'll pay no attention to your other remarks because when i entered the party there was no hierachy of members – the observation and views of all members were treated equal, even if they were saying the obvious, regardless of time served within the party or the degree of any personal contribution made by them. Anyways, i hope tonights meeting is fruitful and we do get a receptive audience for our ideas. I hope that for all our public meetings.
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gnome wrote:alanjjohnstone wrote:At tonight's meeting you stand up and declare that the Green Party is the exact same as the Tories, that Caroline Lucas is no different from Iain Duncan Smith, that the Greens and she are fakes, not deserving of any sympathy or support from the working class and we will see if the SPGB are given any sort of hearing in the future from the membership of the Green Party or their voters in Brighton. On the other hand, you can stand up and tell them that we share their aspirations for new society based upon egalitarian principles, of a sustainable steady-state economy based upon industrial and community democracy but we find we cannot agree their policies will achieve such a just world and suggest they listen to an alternative that we believe is the only real solution to the problems that they and ourselves wish to end. Your choice, Gnome.No need to teach your Grandmother to suck eggs, Alan. I've probably been around the party a darn sight longer than you have and introduced quite a few more workers into membership.At tonight's meeting we'll do both. We'll declare that all reformist parties are deluders and pretenders not deserving any sympathy or support from the working class AND we'll tell those present that we share their aspirations for a new society and suggest they listen to our alternative. No incongruity there.
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Ozymandias wrote:What you mean total WSM membership is only 75? Oh shit. We've been living in some form or other of private property society for some 10,000 (?) years now plus we are brainwashed from day one of life into believing this is the only way of running things and all this allied with the fact that the 1% own every possible organ of the media makes me think there's no way out of this. I can't help it.1st Warning: 1. The general topic of each forum is given by the posted forum description. Do not start a thread in a forum unless it matches the given topic, and do not derail existing threads with off-topic posts.
To get back to topic. Now that he is leader I wonder if Corbyn allows full and open discusion within the labour party. Or will he and his cronies invent some rule to use against anyone who rocks the boat. Easy done, just keep reminding those rocking the boat about the rules. Don't have to use the rules on his cronies. I suspect he is a little too honest for that.
No, not one of the 50 or 50,000 shades of capitalist criticism ― including those made by bourgeois critics, since they also carp bitterly over capitalism ― wants the same thing as we do.We distinguish ourselves from all of them by advocating the only practical solution to capitalism's problems ― a system of society based upon the common ownership and democratic control of the means and instruments of production by and in the interest of the whole of society.On the other hand, these proponents of 50 or 50,000 shades of capitalism's woes interpret our workable solution as utterly unworkable. It is they who openly disagree with us. It is they who stand intellectually superior to us. It is they who talk down to us.Don't turn two-sided disagreement one-sidely against us. We and they genuinely do disagree with each other. We are at genuine political loggerheads.They advocate capitalism without its problems. That is impossible. That is genuinely not agreeing with us. They interpret capitalism according to their imaginary desires, and so genuinely crave the impossible, a fictitious fantasy. We cannot genuinely agree with their grounds for genuinely disagreeing with us.Despite their delusory stance you claim that some among these 50 or 50,000 shades of capitalist critics actually agree with us ― genuinely agree with our solution ― and genuinely want the same thing as we do.I therefore challenge you to point out just one of the 50 or 50,000 shades of capitalist criticism ― just one of them will do ― that actually advocates the same practical solution as we do. Show us just one of them that genuinely wants the same Object that we want.
The Sun says that Corbyn wishes to abolish the Army. Perhaps the various anarchist groups will now support labour http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/09/14/jeremy-corbyn-wants-to-abolish-the-army-apparently_n_8132372.html?utm_hp_ref=ukActually its a piss take but still…..
Just seen he refused to sing the National Anthem at a Battle of Britain commemoration in St Pauls bCathedral. Got to given that. Better than Michael Foot's dufflecoat.
[sarcasm alert]What! Not singing the national anthem. The bastard!But at least he was wearing a tie.
jondwhite wrote:The Tory attack ad herehttp://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/sep/14/conservtives-corbyn-attack-video-demon-eyes-smear-with-legsLike the article says, it looks like the Tories are shit scared of Corbyn and the growing frustration he seems to have tapped into.What else could explain such heavy duty scare tactics so early in this governments reign of misery?Time for the SPGB to tap into that frustration and hit the Tories hard. There's plenty to work with right now.
Quote:I therefore challenge you to point out just one of the 50 or 50,000 shades of capitalist criticism ― just one of them will do ― that actually advocates the same practical solution as we do.Derek Wall – one time co-leader of the Green Party and contributor to 'Life without money' has already been cited on this thread as a socialist outside the SPGB.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2P7zXktn3gIf you wish an organisation then there is the Anarchist Federationhttps://afed.org.uk/Yes there is a difference in how we can achieve those same ends but as i have said, we do not claim Papal Infallibility (or at least some of us don't) upon the means. We just take what we consider as the best evidence and it is possible we may well be wrong, as again as i pointed out in my post, we do not possess all-encompassing knowledge (or at least most of us don't) when it comes to the rise of socialist consciousness…i do acknowledge that the groundswell support within the Labour Party towards the Corbyn position is a change of direction for the Labour Party, one that is positive. Will this translate into a change of view within the working class as awhole , i hazard to guess to judge yes. Is it a move towards the acceptance of our socialist position, you yourself conclude that it is.
Quote:people are once more forced by circumstances into having grave misgivings about capitalism as a social system, which misgivings have for decades been suppressed by the wholescale victory in the battle of ideas by the capitalist class. These are such rare times to show a receptive working class our unswerving steadfastness to our sole justifiable case for socialism.Once again no-one disputes our case for socialism, but some do say there are different ways of communicating it and one approach is not to appear so adversarial while still disagreeing. There are in this world more than one way to pluck a chicken.
ALB wrote:Just seen he refused to sing the National Anthem at a Battle of Britain commemoration in St Pauls bCathedral. Got to given that. Better than Michael Foot's dufflecoat.He may not have sung it but he stood up for it…
With this thread morphing so dramatically since Corbyn was elected it would be appreciated if users consider moving the current discussion on 'Communicating the socialist case effectively in a positive direction' to a new thread.I've already issued two reminders on Rule 1. and issued two suspensions and numerous warnings on this rule being breached. Time to move on and also provide ample discussion, on an item which is far more important in my estimate than any further discussion on what happens next now Labour has a new leader. Especially when we already know the answer to that question.
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