Is the Extraction of Surplus Value Immoral?
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"What makes you think you are entitled to food and clothing. Can you tell me why your children should have shoes on their feet?"
Robert Tressell
And as Baltrop writes in the SS June 1972:
'This is going to the heart of the matter…..'
Vin Maratty wrote:Is the Extraction of Surplus Value Immoral?From the point of view of which class?From the point of view of the bourgeoisie, no.From the point of view of the proletariat, yes.Morality is a product of humans and their society, not something handed down from outside society, eg., by a 'god'. There are no universal moral ideals.Thus, 'exploitation is immoral'.Humans make the rules, not 'the concrete', 'the material', or 'objective science'.We create our knowledge; this includes our scientific and our moral knowledge.
Hi LBird, Not sure what you are saying. Exploitation is immoral from the point of view of the exploited but moral from the point of view of the exploiters? So morality is an expression/reflection of class interests ? That means it is morally OK for me to extract surplus value if I come into money but it becomes immoral if I go bust? I apologise if I sound facetious but it is not my intention, comrade
Vin Maratty wrote:Not sure what you are saying. Exploitation is immoral from the point of view of the exploited but moral from the point of view of the exploiters? So morality is an expression/reflection of class interests ? That means it is morally OK for me to extract surplus value if I come into money but it becomes immoral if I go bust?Does this all come as a surprise, Vin? That 'morality' is socially-based?
Vin Maratty wrote:I apologise if I sound facetious but it is not my intention, comradeNo, you don't sound 'facetious', Vin, just bewildered! If morality doesn't come from society (and hence, for us, classes), from where does it originate?The planet Morality? God? Priests with special knowledge? The Leninist Party of Professional Revolutionaries Who Know All?You're not going to tell us it's those with access to 'Scientific Socialism (TM Messrs Engels & Lenin)' who also know about 'Scientific Morality', are you, Vin?I apologise for my facetiousness, Vin. It's a fair cop.Exploitation is a moral category, used to explain to humans the motions of wealth from the workers who create it, to the bosses who appropriate it. By the way, 'workers' and 'bosses' are moral categories, too.If this is bad news for you, I'm sorry, comrade. The sooner we get away from 'hard economics' (and rocks talking to us, as for DiaMat-ists), the better. Humans are involved, in every sense, comrade: materially, ideologically, morally.
Well, as a Marxist I believe ALL ideas come from material conditions but I don't believ that ALL ideas are of use to the expoited. Which is why I asked about morality. It appears to have a use only as an instrument of oppression and as an agent of the ruling class. I have yet to be convinced otherwise.
Vin Maratty wrote:Well, as a Marxist I believe ALL ideas come from material conditions …Well, as a Marxist, too, I believe ALL ideas come from humans.I think you are confusing Engels' philosophical ideas with Marx's.Perhaps this is the real discussion that we all need to have, Vin. It's creeping into every thread, mostly (but not entirely) due to me, I admit.For me, I'll only accept your proposition when it can be shown that even ONE idea (never mind 'ALL') has come from material conditions (or 'rocks', as they are better known). Humans produce ideas – some 'fit', some don't.There is an interesting discussion to be had about why some ideas 'fit' (and who defines 'fit'), but the ideas originate in human creativity, not inanimate, unconscious 'matter'.Rocks don't do dialogue, comrade.
LBird wrote:Vin Maratty wrote:Well, as a Marxist I believe ALL ideas come from material conditions …Well, as a Marxist, too, I believe ALL ideas come from humans.
These two statements are not contradictory.
ALB wrote:LBird wrote:Vin Maratty wrote:Well, as a Marxist I believe ALL ideas come from material conditions …Well, as a Marxist, too, I believe ALL ideas come from humans.
These two statements are not contradictory.
Depending upon the interpretation of 'come from' which is accepted, they can be.If 'come from' means 'created by', then they are contradictory.Ideas are not 'created by' 'material conditions'; 'material conditions' are interpreted (or given meaning) by humans, who create ideas and by practice see if these ideas 'fit' the 'material conditions'. Of course, the determination of 'fit' is also a human decision, and the same 'material conditions' can be interpreted differently by different groups of humans, especially classes.The notion that 'material conditions' create ideas and transfer them to humans is positivism. It requires a passive conception of humanity. It doesn't take much to see why this view of 'material conditions' giving orders to passive humans suits the Leninist ideology so well.Of course, 'material conditions' do nothing of the sort, and so a Party is required to actually think for humanity, whose alleged passivity must thus be enforced.Repeat after Commissar MatConvitch, comrade convict, 'Rocks know best…'
LBird wrote:Ideas are not 'created by' 'material conditions';then where do they come from? Unless you are suggesting
LBird wrote:The planet Morality? God? Priests with special knowledge? The Leninist Party of Professional Revolutionaries Who Know All?You cannot be saying that the brain and its ideas are not part of the material conditions of existence?
LBird wrote:There is an interesting discussion to be had about why some ideas 'fit' (and who defines 'fit'), but the ideas originate in human creativity, not inanimate, unconscious 'matter'.Rocks don't do dialogue, comrade.I don't think we should drift too off-topic as other threads have done, which is why I started the thread. 'class' is of interest to the working class, as is 'surplus value'; they are related to the material basis of today's society but what of 'justice' and 'morality'??
Vin Maratty wrote:LBird wrote:Ideas are not 'created by' 'material conditions';then where do they come from? Unless you are suggesting
LBird wrote:The planet Morality? God? Priests with special knowledge? The Leninist Party of Professional Revolutionaries Who Know All?You cannot be saying that the brain and its ideas are not part of the material conditions of existence?
As I've already said, Vin, it all depends upon how one defines 'material conditions'.If one means that 'human creativity and ideas' are a 'material condition', then I agree.But, having said that, we can never return to positivist nonsense about passive scientists observing nature. It's the end of Engels' erroneous amateurish philosophy. Humans create our knowledge, scientific and moral.However, if this 'agreement' is a Trojan Horse for superficially accepting 'mind' as equating to a 'material condition', and then saying that a 'rock' is also a 'material condition', and so that 'material conditions of all sorts' think and criticise and tell humans things (as 'discovery scientists' insist), then the key difference between the conscious and the non-conscious has again been obliterated.We, as Pannekoek insisted, create the Laws of Nature. Nature does not reveal itself to a passive humanity, as common sense science insists, even today.That is what is at stake in this 'agreement' about 'mind' being a 'material condition'. Rocks don't think; human minds do.
Vin Maratty wrote:'class' is of interest to the working class, as is 'surplus value'; they are related to the material basis of today's society but what of 'justice' and 'morality'??So, 'justice' and 'morality' must be related to today's society. Hence, they are class products. Their 'justice and morality' is not our 'justice and morality'.
'Justice' and 'morality' has been used to control people throughout history. You are suggesting a proletarian 'justice' and morality'.No thanks! As you said yourself
LBird wrote:You're not going to tell us it's those with access to 'Scientific Socialism (TM Messrs Engels & Lenin)' who also know about 'Scientific Morality', are you, Vin?Vin Maratty wrote:'Justice' and 'morality' has been used to control people throughout history. You are suggesting a proletarian 'justice' and morality'.No thanks!More 'transhistorical' thinking!The point, Vin, is whose 'justice and morality' has been used to control?Furthermore, if 'justice and morality' is not our 'proletarian justice and morality', where does it come from?Or, doesn't 'justice and morality' exist? Perhaps we should hand over society, after the 'Glorious Day', to the robots, and avoid those pesky humans altogether?
LBird wrote:Or, doesn't 'justice and morality' exist? Perhaps we should hand over society, after the 'Glorious Day', to the robots, and avoid those pesky humans altogether?Funny you should say that but isn't that what the religious nuts told us would happen if the world was run by athiests?
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