In? Out? Big Business or Little England?

[PJShannon]

Following is a discussion on the page titled: In? Out? Big Business or Little England?.
Below is the discussion so far. Feel free to add your own comments!

[ALB]

The RCG has replied:

Quote:

Dear comrade, Your article is wrong, we are for a boycott. So perhaps not so different from yourselves. Maybe if you asked us you wouldn't get it wrong. Solidarity,  Anthony.

We did include them as "against the flow" of most of the Leninist group of urging "Vote Leave", saying that they are "yet to declare". Which seems to have been true at the time of writing. But since then they have declared: See:http://www.revolutionarycommunist.org/capitalist-crisis/4349-eu-referendumdated 1 June.Not so different from us, though for rather difference reasons:

Quote:

We reject totally taking sides in what is essentially a dispute between sections of the ruling class over what would be for Britain necessarily totally reactionary outcomes – part of a European imperialist bloc or becoming an offshore centre for usury capital under the umbrella of US imperialism. The only principled communist position is to call for a boycott of the referendum while exposing the reactionary intentions of those on either side.

[DJP]

Calling everyone who votes in the referendum "class collaborators" just makes us look like a sad whining sect.If I vote, I'm going to vote "in" as the right to travel and settle and work within the EU with ease is a reform worth wanting. I'm sure the 5% of the UK population who will not get a vote on the issue, the EU nationals who live and work and have formed relations here, will think the same too.And how does the prediction about the Calais camps being "greatly swollen with Poles and Eastern Europeans too" amount to "no change"? If this line is meant as a joke it's not funny and shows a nationalistic bias that should not be in a socialist paper..Socialism is not coming for at least another 100 years but in the meantime I'd sooner not be stuck on a small island with with a bunch of xenophobic nationalists, which is what Brexit (albiet symbolically) represents.

[Michael Tom West]

SPGB's position : Neither be part of a European imperialist bloc nor become an offshore centre for usury capital under the umbrella of US imperialism and to expose this with an "active boycott" and the party's other writings re the EU Ref is certainly crystal clear and stands out as making what the rest of the left –  be they INners or OUTters – write as tortuous for the reader to make out in the extreme. As one who's been mentally flip-flopping  (not quite the right word that, but what Hilary Clinton does anyway!) between all three options ( all four if I include not bothering to go down the road to the Polling Station on June 23rd) in the following manner ( my left lobe's brain's thoughts are on the left below t'other on the right huh for once not political designations !) :-concern for peace and stability : so on the whole stay IN versus DITTO so OUT and NATO next stop! Both I admit liable to elicit from my comrade a you're-living-in-cloud-cuckoo-land response! What bugs me is that a spoiled vote – unless it were massively replicated – is not going to make a differance to the voting outcome. Or at best it will help to have an outcome which will be a little less 49 percent versus 51 percent either way. And that politics – whether bourgeois or working-class – is about getting your hands dirty, there is no such thing as political virtuosity/virginity. 

[alanjjohnstone]

Hmmmm….Should i be a British nationalist…or a European nationalist? Or a world socialist? Much the same issue when Scotland had its referendum…a Scottish nationalist or a British nationalist?Some say the answer is whether the outcome increases or decreases division and solidarity. Always comes down to it…opting for the lesser evil. Clinton or Trump? Corbyn or Cameron? …Countless, innumerable choices of the same nature made in the past, the present and the future and we still struggle to communicate a message that resonates with people that certain political issues are not important and do not matter.Over 90% registered to vote in the Scottish referendum. Over 80% voted . Our advice was simply unacceptable to the majority of our fellow workers. People wanted to have their say – Yes or No. Why?For the first time in a long time they felt they were part of the political process and what they thought and did counted.

Quote:

What bugs me is that a spoiled vote – unless it were massively replicated – is not going to make a differance to the voting outcome.

I recall  the defenders of anarchist popularity could say that the third who abstained in elections were in practice anarchists even if practically it resulted in zero-political power shifting. Not voting was definitely apathy, no matter how you tried to frame it. Today we can look at the Sanders participation numbers (at least in the white population). People returning to electoral politics in droves. They too believing that what they do is of some importance, even if ultimately the Democratic machine will confirm their original choice.  I do await just what the Sanderistas do when his challenge fails and fades. Is there going to be a real legacy of political organisation and resistance?After the referendum on Europe, what will be the "new" reality? Some speculate on a new right-wing dominance if Brexit prevails. But perhaps also the splintering of the Tories and the emasculation of UKIP, too?If the status-quo wins out…the status quo remains …nothing changes…Sadly, not any new international solidarity across Europe …certainly not welcoming open arms to EU migrant workers …mobility of labour will still be eaten away bit by bit.And the for nony -EU fellow workers, barriers just asstrong and  reinforced, exactly in th same way the Leave camp will impose. No change there either.Anyway, all rather hypothetical to me…i don't have a vote in the referendum and if i return to the UK, despite UK nationality, i'm an incoming migrant to be excluded from all the social service welfare benefits for various time periods. In or Out, makes no difference to me. So i don't care how you all vote. Plague on both houses.     

[ALB]

Michael Tom West wrote:

SPGB's position : Neither be part of a European imperialist bloc nor become an offshore centre for usury capital under the umbrella of US imperialism and to expose this with an "active boycott"

For the record this is the RCG's formulation not that of the SPGB, although our position is clear enough as you say: don't take sides. See:http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/socialist-standard/2010s/2016/no-1342-june-2016/problem-not-eu-%E2%80%A6-it%E2%80%99s-capitalism

[DJP]

alanjjohnstone wrote:

Hmmmm….Should i be a British nationalist…or a European nationalist? 

I don't think it really makes sense to talk of "European Nationalism". If there really is such a thing as a singular European national identity what does it look like? What are the shared features of this identity?

[alanjjohnstone]

It certainly made sense to the Hungarian prime minister, Viktor Orban, to say “Those arriving have been raised in another religion, and represent a radically different culture. Most of them are not Christians, but Muslims,” he said. “This is an important question, because Europe and European identity is rooted in Christianity. Is it not worrying in itself that European Christianity is now barely able to keep Europe Christian? There is no alternative, and we have no option but to defend our borders.”And there is part of your answer, What are the shared features of this identity? from the horses mouth – religion.Slovakia's Prime minister Robert Fico explained "Multi-culturalism is a fiction. Once you let migrants in, you can face such problems," Czech President Milos Zeman “The experience of western European countries which have ghettos and excluded localities shows that the integration of the Muslim community is practically impossible,” Zeman said in a televised interview. “Let them have their culture in their countries and not take it to Europe, otherwise it will end up like Cologne,” he added, referring to the mass New Year’s Eve assaults on women in Germany and elsewhere.Zeman claimed the influx was masterminded by Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood, saying the Islamist group was using money from several states to finance it in a bid to “gradually control Europe”.It certainly makes sense if you are non-European and want to gain entry.  

[DJP]

alanjjohnstone wrote:

"Europe and European identity is rooted in Christianity."

OK fine. But now you'll have to say that "European Nationalism" includes both eastern and western europe and Russia too. Is it really meaningful to talk of "nationalism" existing on this broad basis?A national identity is based on more than a shared religion. The kind of tight narrative and mythology that gives rise to a European "imagined community" (in the sense of Europe being a single country) just hasn't really been forged yet.So until there is such a thing as a European nation, there can't be such a thing as "European nationalism".Of course you can still have rascists and religious biggots whithout such a thing existing..You might find this discussion interesting:http://historum.com/european-history/91170-europe-nation.html

[alanjjohnstone]

I will concede that nationalism is a very slippery concept. It is not as simple as my sloganeering makes out. We have the UK – a union of 4 nations – frequently involved against one another in civil wars, often with religious differences as the pretext but which can still produce a UK nationalism. Certainly there is still an on-going rivalry between the petty nationalisms of the component countries of the EU and that of the EU bureaucracy which is often at loggerheads with individual nations – (Greece?). I think you are right, there is racism and islamophobia bigotry in the policies of many nations and that is shared in many respects. The Slovak president made a very significant distinction between Ukrainian refugees and those from the Middle East. I read the first page of your link….bit too long to fully read, right now, i'll make time later, but it talks about the need for commonality in the creation of a nation. I think we have that beginning so we can talk of the emergence of European nationalism –  A European foreign policy – European economic policy- European human rights, European crime policy – a European army and many other European institutions either arising or solidfying their presence.But i think because i am not in the UK and because i am not in Europe, i view (and i think i made that bias clear), UK and Europe rather differently from those inside. I recall your support for EU because of the mobility of labour issue. But that is only seen through the prism of an EU national, not from a world view of Africans and Asians. We have managed and controlled mobility of labour for non-EU folk. A bigger prison cell as you once said but one that millions would love to break into, not out from. Fortress Europe is a collective policy agreed by Europeans. The tariff and customs walls is another and i have read many developing nations and particularly small farmer groups protest that the IMF representing the interests of the European corporations demand free trade from them but exclude them from entry to the European market. (some ex-colonies, i believe, still have special privileges)In the context of being part of the World Socialism Movement, not British or European workers, but part of the world's working class, there exist sectional self-interests we have to combat, so i think we have to highlight the global divisions that exist and which the EU actively reinforces. The usual reposte is still valid…would you rather have a quick death or a lingering slow one? Smallpox or Cholera?We expose anti-immigration myths about EU migrants from the native-born and we have to do equally the same for non-EU migrants and attack the EU as an entity that maintains the myth of "us" and "them" – and that separation is the basis of all nationalist ideas.  I refer you to this latest SOYMB blog-post. http://socialismoryourmoneyback.blogspot.com/2016/06/excluding-poor.html

[Author]

Posts