Imagine you could pass any law or regulation in a capitalist society in order to make it more socialist.

[Anonymous]

Subhaditya wrote:

mcolome1 wrote:

Nobody with humanist principles will never desire to be a president

Hmm, if there is an hour to spare do check out this documentary about Aaron Swartz… he dreamed of being in the White House eventually…. but look what he was upto while he was alive….https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpvcc9C8SbM You may not get to become one but thats different from wanting to…The US government killed him off as he was proving to be a genuine threat to their capitalist class and was growing in power…

Answering to your post: Not even Lenin or Stalin were a threat to capitalism.The only threat to Capitalism is the whole working class of the whole world armed with a class consciousness. Threat might be the whole USA working class with their own class consciousness with the desires to  establish a free access and money less society in conjunction with the working class of others nations, and throw away all the passports, and nationalists crapsWe do not need leaders, the leaders need us, and without us,  they are just a bunch of crapI am a member of the working class armed with class consciousness, and i do not provide allegiance to any flat, to any country, or any national anthem, or patriotic symbols, my allegiance goes to mankind, or to my father or my mother who provided me everything that I need in my life, and I have not received anything from any leader, and they have not  given anything to us either.Barack Obama also dreamed of being in the White House ( built by black slaves ) or the house of the world conspirators and he became one of the best servers of the US ruling class, he has followed the pass of all the others. Like Franz Fanon wrote.: Black skin, white masksThe USA government has killed personalities more powerful than him, and they have killed their own allied, and they have killed powerful dictators after they have placed them in power.Conspiracies theory never goes to the heart of the social problems. Fantasies sometimes is more powerful than reality. The world is controlled by the Market

[Anonymous]

moderator1 wrote:

Reminder: 1. The general topic of each forum is given by the posted forum description. Do not start a thread in a forum unless it matches the given topic, and do not derail existing threads with off-topic posts.

Perhaps i should change the title of the discusion thread? Some commenters have argued that in order for communism to succeed we need a majority of people educated and aware and practiced in communist principles.  This discussion forum seems like such a place to me. Additionally each commenter owns the means for producing arguments and words in this discussion.  The resources for production of ideas are unlimited and free to all members of the community. Each person can freely contribute whatever they want and take what they want from this discussion and it will never experience a shortage and the stock of ideas will not be diminished by ideas being taken (copied).  and perhaps I should change my opening comment to read. . . . ..

SteveSanFrancisco wrote:

Imagine you could encourage any rule or practice in a communist discussion forum in order to make it a model example of communism in practice.I want to ask a question.  If you had a communist aware society, say the SPGB forum, and you had some magic wand to make any rule or practice (for example you're a moderator or able to program this website rules or add capabilities to the website or limit capabilities for the website).  What is the fewest laws or easiest to pass laws or most practical laws that would nudge that society towards the discussion most representative of communistic ideals.   Here's some ideas.1) rule #1: The general topic of each forum is given by the posted forum description. Do not start a thread in a forum unless it matches the given topic, and do not derail existing threads with off-topic posts.    2) rule #2: Attention is a scarce resource and any additional rules for the discussion should result in increasing the value of the thread to the reader reader as measured by the inverse of the quality an quantity(duration) of attention required for a given value to the reader.  This is a "don't pollute the common resource rule."  3) rule #3) effort is a scarce resource and any rules should decrease the effort requred to produce value in the discussion.  this is a "make it easier to contribute to the common resources rule". . . hmm. . . those 2nd and 3rd rules seem vague and in need of clarification with examples.  . . Any other ideas or contributions. . . 

[Anonymous]

I've noticed this website communication system we're using now to discuss things is a thread based hierarchial Bulletin board style architecture.  Perhaps the website rules are capitalist based rules and corrosive to communism style discussions. if we agree that the current website architecture is effectively a capitalist command and control system of rules with people owning discussions and owning comments and owning threads, then perhaps that's part of the problem we have with having communist style discussions. there are class structures built into it such as mods being in a different set of priveledges than regular commentators, and lets face it the mods are our masters and own the means of our production of ideas.  I've also noticed some of the commenters have insisted that half steps towards communism result in failure.  So to echo some commenters sentiments, "we don't need to reform this website we need a revolution that replaces it with something better based on communism principles.  Maybe, in consideration of that concern what we need is a system, instead of a rule.  The Holocracy OS is such a system I discovered in researching business managment solutions for communistic oriented business in the US while working on a comunistic project. It's a sort of system for managing ideas and decision making and conversations about ideas favored by Idea based business. . . What I'm suggesting here isn't a single rule it's a system.  Here's the short description from their "how it works page". . .

Quote:

Holacracy is a complete, packaged system for self-management in organizations. Holacracy replaces the traditional management hierarchy with a new peer-to-peer “operating system” that increases transparency, accountability, and organizational agility.Through a transparent rule set and a tested meeting process, Holacracy allows businesses to distribute authority, empowering all employees to take a leadership role and make meaningful decisions.

and here's a link to more details http://www.holacracy.org/how-it-works/Any thoughts on this?

[Subhaditya]

mcolome1 wrote:

The only threat to Capitalism is the whole working class of the whole world armed with a class consciousness.

How do you bring about this class consciousness…. that person Aaron Swartz was trying to do something about it… and he was developing political aspirations… anyways you said someone with humanist principles cannot aspire to be president… I think you are wrong on that…And do you tell people to question things or just provide ready made answer as if we already know what perfection is and all we have to do is implement it and we would reach the 'state of perfection' … your posts sound like bible preaching and we all know how wrong they were about many things.Just because you got one thing right doesnt mean you got everything right.

[Anonymous]

Let me play the same  romantic game too. Let's pass a law to criminalize profits, lets pass a law to criminalize capitalist wars,Lets pass a law to take all the presidents, and senators  to jail for their criminal acts,Lets pass a law to criminalize all invasions against others countries,lets pass a law to provide good medical service to all human beings,lets pass a law to open more medical schools for free,  and without any restrictionslets pass a law to criminalize nationalism and patriotism. lets pass a law to put all the means of productions in the hands of the working class. .Lets pass a law to eliminate millitary expenses and elininate all the armed forcesI do not think that a ruling class is going to shoot itself. In this society we have peoples living in Disneyland, playing video games,  and reading comics books, and we have others peoples that are able to see our social reality

[Bijou Drains]

If I could enact any law, I'd ban surveys and fuckin postcards as well

[Anonymous]

mcolome1 wrote:

Let me play the same  romantic game too. Let's pass a law to criminalize profits, lets pass a law to criminalize capitalist wars,Lets pass a law to take all the presidents, and senators  to jail for their criminal acts,Lets pass a law to criminalize all invasions against others countries,lets pass a law to provide good medical service to all human beings,lets pass a law to open more medical schools for free,  and without any restrictionslets pass a law to criminalize nationalism and patriotism. lets pass a law to put all the means of productions in the hands of the working class. .Lets pass a law to eliminate millitary expenses and elininate all the armed forcesI do not think that a ruling class is going to shoot itself. In this society we have peoples living in Disneyland, playing video games,  and reading comics books, and we have others peoples that are able to see our social reality

Thanks MColome1,Thanks M……1,I appreciate you're taking the time to play my "Socialistic production of ideas" game.  You did not ask me a question or specify what action you want me to take for 5 minutes related to your comment, so I made up my own question and answer to confirm for you that I spent my time reading what you wrote.In a post revolution socialist society, you need to specify the exchange you are freely proposing for me to freely accept it.  In a capitalist society I might talk about paying you $1 for 5 minutes of your time. BUT in a post socialist revolution society, it you have to talk about "Affiliation: who the exchange offer is valid for" the exchage rate" how many minutes of time do you need/want and how many minute of time are you willing or have the ability to and means of production to offer". So for every exchange in a post socialist revolution, the rule for a valid exchange is that it must have a statement clarifying "Affiliation, Ability, and needs". As in the phrase "to each according to their ability and each accoding to their needs".I have spent my 5 minutes re-writing your request into the form of a postcard.  Please consider it for valuation. You determine the value of my exchange using the postcard feedback question and a request for my 5 minutes of time. if you think my comment was worth reading you reply with "no charge for my time reading your comment."  If you think reading my comment was a waste of your time write down how you want me to spend 5 minutes of my time to pay you back.  Here's the link to the postcard. . .https://docs.google.com/document/d/12N92wl74vQathQT1hJmNkJsl_DsKrdU7XrO_O66ZH8o/edit#heading=h.v6qlp7dz54au

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I will respond to the questions here for free as a courtesy for you as well. . . We already have laws against wars for profit, so I think those are the lest valuable suggestions. Those laws don't work.  I like favorite your suggestion to "provide good medical service to all human beings".  That's my favorite law and the one I would voluntarily contribute most towards with my time.  How many or hours of time to you think it will take to pass that law?  Can you spend 5 minutes of your time for me on estimating the scope of this project to pass that law?  I think the law to eliminate military expenses won't work because the system will fight that one the hardest and we don't have the resources to overcome opposition to passing the law. that's the least practical idea IMO.Thanks for the questions.  They were of value to me in considering ideas to promote.  That's like similar to deciding what company to invest stock in if we are talking about capitalism, but in a post socialist revolution society we would invest in ideas and laws instead of investing in business organizations. That's all I'm giving you in a free exchange your list idea. if you write back with which law of yours is your favorite for me to spend 5 minutes on, then I'll spend 5 minutes writing or contemplating any 1 of the laws you pick. or you can ask me to spend 5 minutes of time on something else. Let me know what you want.  Also, what you you want for 5 minutes of your time wriiting on the topic of. . . ."discuss, In a post Socialist revolution future were time is traded as a currency and each individual or oranization has a time bank account with hours they can ask others to serve them. . . Then can punishment and laws be enforced by financial penalties and siezures of peoples saved minutes of favors?  If yes, then how does a financial penalty of community hours owed that is imposed on a person say, the president of the united states, compare with the results of a law punishing somoene with capital based dollars."

[Anonymous]

Tim Kilgallon wrote:

If I could enact any law, I'd ban surveys and fuckin postcards as well

I have written that law for you and have a plan to enact it. Of course I made a postcard to get the news out and get support to pass the law.  Here's what it says on the postcard I made for you. . . https://docs.google.com/document/d/12N92wl74vQathQT1hJmNkJsl_DsKrdU7XrO_O66ZH8o/edit#heading=h.3w86cm3wtzd6for your convenince the postcard desgin at the link above (wich looks nicer because you can format text in a google doc better than in this discussion forum) is copied here below. . . 

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We can stop junk mail and surveys that waste your time. We have a plan to stop it for good. Our political mailer philosophy is to prove we value your time and information by giving you 5 minutes of our time for reading this and completing a survey telling us how you want us to spend 5 minutes. It’s that easy to stop junk mail. We are going to make sure that junk mail solicitors value your time equal to their own like we do. We want you to vote YES on  “Public Good for Public Time in Mailers Law”. Once enacted, every time consuming non-profit survey or mailer will have to give you an equal or greater amount of time for every minute of your time that they take!   Imagine if every political mailer you received came with a 5 minute favor for your use? You could collect favors from that pile of political mailers on your coffee table and turn them into a new tree planted in the forest or on your sidewalk!  Wouldn’t that be a better world?  If you want to help more, we have other projects you can donate your 5 minutes towards like, “what if EVERY bank statement you received in your mailbox came with a 15 minute favor of your choice?”  Well, I’m getting ahead of myself, but if you like the idea, then join our brainstorming branch and upvote it for more attention and time resources. make a suggestion, or vote to encourage our next choice for legislative action for the people, of the people, and by the people.  This message was endorsed by and time data verified by a generous donation of time from the world socialist of Great Britain. Join with us to help stop junk mail.  

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[Anonymous]

Steve-SanFrancisco-UserExperienceResearchSpecialist wrote:

mcolome1 wrote:

Let me play the same  romantic game too. Let's pass a law to criminalize profits, lets pass a law to criminalize capitalist wars,Lets pass a law to take all the presidents, and senators  to jail for their criminal acts,Lets pass a law to criminalize all invasions against others countries,lets pass a law to provide good medical service to all human beings,lets pass a law to open more medical schools for free,  and without any restrictionslets pass a law to criminalize nationalism and patriotism. lets pass a law to put all the means of productions in the hands of the working class. .Lets pass a law to eliminate military expenses and eliminate all the armed forcesI do not think that a ruling class is going to shoot itself. In this society we have peoples living in Disneyland, playing video games,  and reading comics books, and we have others peoples that are able to see our social reality

Thanks MColome1,Thanks M……1,I appreciate you're taking the time to play my "Socialistic production of ideas" game.  You did not ask me a question or specify what action you want me to take for 5 minutes related to your comment, so I made up my own question and answer to confirm for you that I spent my time reading what you wrote.In a post revolution socialist society, you need to specify the exchange you are freely proposing for me to freely accept it.  In a capitalist society I might talk about paying you $1 for 5 minutes of your time. BUT in a post socialist revolution society, it you have to talk about "Affiliation: who the exchange offer is valid for" the exchage rate" how many minutes of time do you need/want and how many minute of time are you willing or have the ability to and means of production to offer". So for every exchange in a post socialist revolution, the rule for a valid exchange is that it must have a statement clarifying "Affiliation, Ability, and needs". As in the phrase "to each according to their ability and each accoding to their needs".I have spent my 5 minutes re-writing your request into the form of a postcard.  Please consider it for valuation. You determine the value of my exchange using the postcard feedback question and a request for my 5 minutes of time. if you think my comment was worth reading you reply with "no charge for my time reading your comment."  If you think reading my comment was a waste of your time write down how you want me to spend 5 minutes of my time to pay you back.  Here's the link to the postcard. . .https://docs.google.com/document/d/12N92wl74vQathQT1hJmNkJsl_DsKrdU7XrO_O66ZH8o/edit#heading=h.v6qlp7dz54au

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I will respond to the questions here for free as a courtesy for you as well. . . We already have laws against wars for profit, so I think those are the lest valuable suggestions. Those laws don't work.  I like favorite your suggestion to "provide good medical service to all human beings".  That's my favorite law and the one I would voluntarily contribute most towards with my time.  How many or hours of time to you think it will take to pass that law?  Can you spend 5 minutes of your time for me on estimating the scope of this project to pass that law?  I think the law to eliminate military expenses won't work because the system will fight that one the hardest and we don't have the resources to overcome opposition to passing the law. that's the least practical idea IMO.Thanks for the questions.  They were of value to me in considering ideas to promote.  That's like similar to deciding what company to invest stock in if we are talking about capitalism, but in a post socialist revolution society we would invest in ideas and laws instead of investing in business organizations. That's all I'm giving you in a free exchange of ideas as payment for your ideas that I spent my time reading and your time writing.

 First, I do not answer any survey, we are not selling a product, we are not selling socialism, and socialism is  not a capitalist product for sale. Your survey is  just Taylor capitalist management used on the assembly line. It does show your bourgeois  mentality. We are not dealing with question to be timed, we are dealing with principles Second, we are just following the game, to pass a law against war, and to criminalize law is like  removing the teeth to a lion, wars are product of the capitalist market, even peace as part of their war, the only way to eliminate war is by eliminating the capitalist market. That is reason why I said that a ruling class will never shoot itself.  War are fought for the benefits of a minority groups using nationalism and patriotism to motivate workers to fight for them, armed forces are part of the working class, and they must acquire socialist consciousness tooThird, capitalism will never provide full medical service to mankind, most of those reforms can be eliminated, and the state is an organ financed with surplus value, and the contribution of surplus value on the part of the capitalist class is decreasing constantly. The so called workers taxpayer is only a taxation myth like anything else on the capitalist society Fourth, militarism is part of the state apparatus, and capitalist must defend themselves against others capitalists, one of the enemy of the capitalist class  is capital itself, army are created in order to defend the interest of the capitalism class, it is not a matter of majority or minority, Looking at your answer, is like shooting yourselves on foot, because you have been suggesting that law can be passed in order to turn capitalism into socialism and that capitalism can be combined with socialism. They said that in order to speak nonsense we must have good memory, and it looks that you do not remember what you have written. I think your survey has been sent to another section of the forum

[Anonymous]

 I am going to enact a law to myself, I am going to stop feeding the troll

[Anonymous]

Subhaditya wrote:

mcolome1 wrote:

Nobody with humanist principles will never desire to be a president

Hmm, if there is an hour to spare do check out this documentary about Aaron Swartz… he dreamed of being in the White House eventually…. but look what he was upto while he was alive….https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpvcc9C8SbMYou may not get to become one but thats different from wanting to…The US governemnt killed him off as he was proving to be a genuine threat to their capitalist class and was growing in power…

 If your need to have others spend an hour watching your documentary is great enough, then I'll watch the documentary with an hour of my time and answer any reading comprehension test questions you come up with to prove it.  In return, I ask you to read and review my postcards for 1 hour of your time. All these postcards are relevant to socialism and promoting socialism so hopefully you enjoy spending your hour reading what I wrote and let me know what you think is your favorite postcard and most hated postcard in your response to prove to me you really spent your hour of time as your part of our voluntary exchange of time.  here's the link to what I want you to spend your hour long time exhchange of a reading, resoning, and responding favor  https://goo.gl/QswLlN

[Bijou Drains]

Steve-SanFrancisco-UserExperienceResearchSpecialist wrote:

Tim Kilgallon wrote:

If I could enact any law, I'd ban surveys and fuckin postcards as well

I have written that law for you and have a plan to enact it. Of course I made a postcard to get the news out and get support to pass the law.  Here's what it says on the postcard I made for you. . . https://docs.google.com/document/d/12N92wl74vQathQT1hJmNkJsl_DsKrdU7XrO_O66ZH8o/edit#heading=h.3w86cm3wtzd6for your convenince the postcard desgin at the link above (wich looks nicer because you can format text in a google doc better than in this discussion forum) is copied here below. . . 

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We can stop junk mail and surveys that waste your time. We have a plan to stop it for good. Our political mailer philosophy is to prove we value your time and information by giving you 5 minutes of our time for reading this and completing a survey telling us how you want us to spend 5 minutes. It’s that easy to stop junk mail. We are going to make sure that junk mail solicitors value your time equal to their own like we do. We want you to vote YES on  “Public Good for Public Time in Mailers Law”. Once enacted, every time consuming non-profit survey or mailer will have to give you an equal or greater amount of time for every minute of your time that they take!   Imagine if every political mailer you received came with a 5 minute favor for your use? You could collect favors from that pile of political mailers on your coffee table and turn them into a new tree planted in the forest or on your sidewalk!  Wouldn’t that be a better world?  If you want to help more, we have other projects you can donate your 5 minutes towards like, “what if EVERY bank statement you received in your mailbox came with a 15 minute favor of your choice?”  Well, I’m getting ahead of myself, but if you like the idea, then join our brainstorming branch and upvote it for more attention and time resources. make a suggestion, or vote to encourage our next choice for legislative action for the people, of the people, and by the people.  This message was endorsed by and time data verified by a generous donation of time from the world socialist of Great Britain. Join with us to help stop junk mail.  

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my mistake. I should have said a law that bans twats that post about surveys and postcards

[Anonymous]

Tim Kilgallon wrote:

If I could enact any law, I'd ban surveys and fuckin postcards as well

Not quite sure I'd go quite that far but I struggle to understand why our normally vigilant moderators are inexplicably tolerant of the continuing multiple postings from the so-called UserExperienceResearchSpecialist across several threads.

[lindanesocialist]

gnome wrote:

 I struggle to understand why our normally vigilant moderators are inexplicably tolerant of the continuing multiple postings from the so-called UserExperienceResearchSpecialist across several threads.

While ignoring ADM floor resolutions suggesting that a party member should be allowed back on the forum.Perhaps there is a danger he may actually open up a discussion on matters of  concern to  the working class instead of a lot philosophical,  metaphysical, and sexually  perverted bullshit.

[Anonymous]

I think that Vin would make more  contribution to this forum than those bullshitters 

[Author]

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