Hong Kong
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“They’re actual socialists, by the way, not play actors”
How can we rate your political credibility after you have stated the above, TS? It took me a few minutes of investigation to determine that the JCP does not represent your case. (actually, I too was surprised by their critiques)
I appreciate your retraction, however.
And your willingness to continue your conversation with ourselves.
What really interests me is how the world at large can achieve the goals set out by socialists who adhere to the primary position of the Marxists.
How do we achieve socialism and by which road?
Surely you do not still believe that Stalin was on the right path and that Xi’s present road is also the true one for the emancipation of workers from wage slavery?
You can admire the ability of some nations to lift people out of extreme poverty but still hold that it is not a permanent answer to social inequality and workers’ misery.
Marx fully understood that capitalism could be progressive. But he also knew it was transitory and had inherent contradictions within it.
“Do you still wish to counsel that WSM member in Japan to join the JCP even though it clearly does not support your politics?”
I stand corrected. The views of the JCP are as bad as your own. Your comrade should not join the party.
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Now you are changing gears. How do you know that ? How do you equate the JCP and the WSM/SPGB ? Have you read and studied our political and economical stands ? You can not learn that in a few days, or hours, it takes a long time to learn it, and it must be compared with Karl Marx and other genuine socialists who advocated for a classless, wageless, moneyless society, and the common possession of the means of product
MS, back to an earlier question I posed to TS.
There must have been something on our website that spurred him into joining the forum. He may have misinterpreted it but if he recalls what it was that first resonated with him, then we can discuss it deeper.
Otherwise, it is proving to be a fruitless debate.
Over the century we have existed, it may be painful for TS to admit his weaknesses to himself but the Party’s principles have been challenged by many whose scholarship is far stronger and more original than his own, and the Party withstood and rebutted those attacks and subsequent history has shown its analysis to be the correct one.
We rarely had to rectify mistakes because quite truthfully, we have made so few over the passing decades. (Before TS says it, I know a stopped clock is correct twice a day.)
TS came here believing himself to be a teacher, I hope he stays on as a student. I am still learning as I think we all are. TS can widen his own political knowledge if he wishes to seek it.
Perhaps, in the course of things, he might have a lesson for us.
“Citation needed.
This is an analysis made by a left wing organization in regard to one of the Congress of the Communist Party of China, they call it a Congress of Capitalist”
So no evidence then? Just mewlings.
How do call an individual or a groups of individuals who have accumulated millions/billions of dollars from the sweat of the workers of a factory or several factories ? How is surplus value obtained ? Have you studied or read Marx capital, or some of his pamphlets in political economy ? They are not beginner, the peoples who have written those articles they have been organized in some type of political organization since 1959, they were part of an organization known as COUSML, and many were economists, and sociologists . You have to investigate, read, and then you can make conclusions
Alan
We have received attacks from all sources of Leninists groups ( Stalinists, Maoists, and Trotskyists ) and all have failed, and many attacks came since we did not support the so called Russian revolution ( we called it the Bolsheviks coups ) we did not support the patriotic war of the Soviet Union, and we did not support WW!, WW2, Korean War, we did not support any so called war of national liberation, and we did not support the Vietcong. History has proven that we were totally correct, at the present time the Vietcong is the best ally of the USA, and they have served the workers in a silver platter to the Western capitalist
“They’re actual socialists, by the way, not play actors”
How can we rate your political credibility after you have stated the above, TS?
I was mistaken. I make mistakes all the time. At least one a day. So what? I’m merely a worker who reads looking for an organisation that is honest about history, doesn’t parrot US state department talking points and is interested in liberation. In my humble opinion the JCP and your own organisation do not live up to such standards.
“It took me a few minutes of investigation to determine that the JCP does not represent your case. (actually, I too was surprised by their critiques)”
And it sounds like you have much in common. An entirely flawed analysis of Soviet history and global politics.
“I appreciate your retraction, however.”
It hasn’t been the first and won’t be the last.
“And your willingness to continue your conversation with ourselves.”
I enjoy such discussions. It helps clarify my own thinking. Though we are at ideological loggerheads I do believe we want the same thing in the end. A society free of oppression and exploitation.
“What really interests me is how the world at large can achieve the goals set out by socialists who adhere to the primary position of the Marxists.
How do we achieve socialism and by which road?”
And that’s why I am leaning toward Marxism/Leninism. The model works. State power was achieved by many such organisations. Without state power no meaningful progress whatsoever can be made. If there wasn’t a looming environmental catastrophe hanging above our heads I might be inclined to favour a slower approach but that doesn’t seem wise given the circumstances.
“Surely you do not still believe that Stalin was on the right path and that Xi’s present road is also the true one for the emancipation of workers from wage slavery?”
I absolutely do think that. Grovver Furr’s writings and my own witnessing of the demonisation of contemporary left wing leaders has convinced me that nothing but lies are fed us about Stalin. Xi has cracked down massively on corruption, has priortised the eradication of poverty, is working hard to reduce China’s Gini coefficient and has the country on path to be communist by 2121. I have no problems with any of that. Why do you?
“You can admire the ability of some nations to lift people out of extreme poverty but still hold that it is not a permanent answer to social inequality and workers’ misery.”
True, but China is working towards communism. The country’s leaders are committed Marxists after all.
“Marx fully understood that capitalism could be progressive. But he also knew it was transitory and had inherent contradictions within it.”
What, and you think the CCP doesn’t know that too?
“at the present time the Vietcong is the best ally of the USA, and they have served the workers in a silver platter to the Western capitalist:
You are misinformed. It sounds like you need some educating. This channel is a good place to start.
And that’s why I am leaning toward
Marxism/Leninism.
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That is a hybrid created by Joseph Stalin. Marxism and Leninism can not be combined , they are in opposition. Marx did not call himself a Marxist and he did not create a system called Marxism. Bakunin used the expression in order to attack Marx and Engels continued using it to defend his friendhttps://www.wspus.org/in-depth/russia-lenin-and-state-capitalism/
https://bibliothequedumarxisme.files.wordpress.com/2017/12/marxism_vs_leninism.pdfThe only Russian personality who had a political view closer to Karl Marx was Julius Martov, and his book on the State demolished completely the state and the revolution of Lenin.
Grovver Furr, I had never before heard of. I may not be the most well-read on the Soviet Union but I do have a little bit of knowledge of the main Marxist writers on Soviet history. Why did Furr pass me by? Perhaps Wiki offers the reason why he has never appeared on my radar and why I won’t waste my time with him. (yes, TS, I plead guilty to being closed-minded in my selection of reading)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grover_Furr
[me]”How do we achieve socialism and by which road?”
[TS]And that’s why I am leaning toward Marxism/Leninism. The model works. State power was achieved by many such organisations. Without state power no meaningful progress whatsoever can be made.Many accuse ourselves of promoting an idea that has doesn’t work and our answer is that socialism, as we conceive of it, has never been tried. (and the basis of those who lodge the true scotsman fallacy against us)
Can a similar defence be put up against Leninism and Stalinism and Maoism which it spawned? Has the socialist ideal come closer to being accomplished with the success of the 1917 and 1949 revolutions?
True Scotsman points to the great advances made against poverty both these nations have made and says yes.
Yet it is the same exact argument the proponents of capitalism have made.
My father went to school bare-foot and in rags (I don’t exaggerate), so should I congratulate British capitalism that I didn’t and my generation was materially better off than previous ones?
TS lauds Xi for proclamations to decrease inequality. But his words are almost identical in tone to Biden’s.
We have heard such intentions before.
Sometimes action such as higher taxes on the rich is taken but the fundamental situation is not addressed, which is the ownership of the means of production by a small minority. And that ownership can be by one individual family such as the Waltons, by shareholders buying business stock in corporations such as Warren Buffet or a nationalised or state-owned enterprise as Chinese SOE where either the government bondholder benefits or the state bureaucrats in charge.
When Xi took office, private firms were responsible for about 50% of all investment in China and about 75% of economic output. Xi chose to adjust the percentages. And this is being called a return to “socialism”, as accurate as the Republican Party calling Obamacare “socialism”.
It is all propaganda.
TS contests that state capitalism exists as an economic form. He called it an oxymoron in a previous post. He has not read Lenin who acknowledges its existence. Perhaps TS doesn’t realise individual owners are not required for the existence of private property and privilege – but the Vatican Catholic Church is an example of such an institution.
TS and ourselves differ very much on how we look at the State. Our view is a very traditional, orthodox, conventional Marxist understanding of its role. Since the time of Marx and Engels we have had the emergence of Bismarckian “state-socialism” and the Bolshevik “workers’ state” and the Labourite “welfare state” with the actual class origins of the State being forgotten. These remain despite the outward appearance of those various states.
Marx was not wrong when he described the State as “the executive committee of the ruling class.”
Xi is simply reinforcing what Marx said.
It is capitalism with Chinese characteristics
With over 1,058 billionaires, according to the 2021 Hurun Global Rich List, China now has more ultra-wealthy than any other country on Earth – including capitalist bastion the United States. China’s ultra-rich added an unprecedented $1.5 trillion to their wealth in 2020 at the height of the global COVID-19 pandemic.
Zhong Shanshan (3,300 percent/$66 billion gain), Saw his wealth rise an eye-popping 3,300 percent during the pandemic year, from $2 billion to $68 billion. The wealth surge was the result of two of his companies going public in 2020, Nongfu bottled water and Beijing Wantai Biological Pharmacy.
Zuo Hui (714 percent/$15.9 billion gain), China. Chair of Homelink, China’s largest real estate brokerage company. Wealth increased $15.9 billion, from $2.2 billion to $17.9 billion
Cheng Yixiao (614 percent/$13.5 billion gain), Co-founder of Kuaishou, a video platform based in Beijing. His wealth increased $13.5 billion, from $2.2 billion to $15.7 billion during the pandemic year.
Su Hua (583 percent/$16.9 billion gain), Also a co-founder of video platform and live-streaming app, Kuaishu. Hua’s wealth increased $16.9 billion during the pandemic year, from $2.9 billion to $19.8 billion.
Chan Tan Ching-Fen (540 percent, $8.1 billion gain), Hong Kong. Wealth comes from Hang Lung Group, a large real estate founded by her late husband. Wealth increased $1.5 billion to $9.6 billion, an increase of $8.1 billion over the pandemic year.
You mentioned Gini scale of inequality
2021 China’s is 38.5 sitting between Gabon and Burundi
Xi has a long way to go
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gini-coefficient-by-country
This guy is a joke
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2021/09/10/ever-s10.htmlMore economic analysis and report on China. Mayor Chinese real estate developer on the brink of default. Capitalism is a very unstable production system
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2021/01/13/rich-j13.html
Growth of super rich in a so called socialist society, the gap between rich and poor, a small minority of capitalists control and own most of the resources
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2017/10/16/chin-o16.htmlChinese billionaires rapidly expand their fortunes. There are some capitalists which have accumulated more wealth than many capitalist in the West and the USA
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/08/19/chin-a19.html
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/08/19/chin-a19.html
600 millions peoples earn less than $145.00 a month
In the Soviet Union there were not private capitalists like in the countries of the West, but the state was run by ruling class which enrich themselves from the sweat of the working, when the collapse took place most of them became the private owner of most of the corporation of Russia, including Putin which has been considered to be one of the richest person in Europe
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/1998/11/viet-n27.html
Exportation of one millions workers from Vietnam to work as cheap labors in others countries. This economic report was written by a Marxist-Leninist group.
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/05/24/pers-m24.html
US Militaries return to Vietnam
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/05/23/viet-m23.htmlMilitary alliance between USA and the government of Vietnam
The Pentagon has also suggested to the USA presidency to lift the sale of lethal weapon to Vietnam. The trip of Obama to Vietnam was similar to the trip of Richard Nixon to China to create more sweat shops due to the fact that Vietnam has a high level of unemployment and it is going thru a deep recession
“Why did Furr pass me by? Perhaps Wiki offers the reason why he has never appeared on my radar and why I won’t waste my time with him.”
Living in the dark is so much easier on the eyes, is it not? Of course, you end up blind in the process. A fitting analogy me thinks.
Hehe, you use Wikipedia as a source? It’s infested with intelligence agents and a tool of the billionaire class. You should be embarrassed.
Wikipedia formally censors The Grayzone as regime-change advocates monopolize editing
“our answer is that socialism, as we conceive of it, has never been tried.”
You need to take power in order to implement your program. 100 years of slinging mud and naval gazing and still nothing accomplished. What use to the world is a hot air club? We have enough of that already.
“Has the socialist ideal come closer to being accomplished with the success of the 1917 and 1949 revolutions?”
Absolutely it has. China has continued to carry the torch lit by Lenin and Stalin with the creation of the first workers’ state. Something you and your fellow chainsaws will only ever dream of.
“Yet it is the same exact argument the proponents of capitalism have made.”
Capitalists were forced to improve their workers’ lives because of the existence of the USSR and other socialist states. With the betrayal of the USSR by a handful of unscrupulous rightists the capitalist societies breathed a collective sigh of relief and have been busy dismantling all the progress made in the 20th Century. China, on the other hand, is constantly improving its peoples’ standard of living rather than eroding it.
“the fundamental situation is not addressed, which is the ownership of the means of production by a small minority.”
All peasants in China own their own land. Home ownership is around 90%. 30% of the country’s assets are publicly owned. The Gini coefficient will be as low as Finland’s in 2050 and the country fully communist by 2121.
“All peasants in China own their own land.”
Correction. They are tenants
All land is either subject to government ownership or collective ownership. In principle, municipal land is subject to government ownership and land outside cities is subject to collective ownership. However, one can obtain the right to use the land. There are two types of land-use rights, the “granted land-use right” and the “allocated land-use right”. The difference is that granted land use rights are limited in time against payment, whereas allocated land use rights are usually given for free and without allocation of time.
In general, rural collectives own agricultural land and the state owns urban land.
Homeownership rates are as you say
Compared to the UK renting a home in the EU is the norm, not the exception. Are they worse off because of this?
Furr was a member of the Progressive Labor Party. Feel free to waste your time reading about it.
https://www.marxists.org/history/erol/1960-1970/index.htm#plp
If Furr is debunking the many accusations from the right-wing then he may indeed have some validity as these, such as the Black Book, verge on the extreme distortion of facts and low-hanging fruit.
If he is saying Stalin’s policies were not complicit in the famines and the repression, he is wrong.
“Capitalists were forced to improve their workers’ lives because of the existence of the USSR and other socialist states.”
So it was not through class struggle and the trade unions that workers gained a larger share of their surplus value.
It was not because of the higher level of technological development that dropped the cost of living.
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