Hong Kong
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We have a member of a companion party in Japan probably he has not found that organization with a large membership and a big incidence within the working class
“It is worth investigating further the relationship of the Chinese people with its government.”
It is. No system is perfect let alone China’s but what they have is far more responsive to the peoples’ needs than most of the bourgeois “democracies”.
“I should have also said Debs for most of his membership of the SPA never held any administrative position or official function in the Party. His role was mostly advisory.”
Which changes nothing. I was pointing out the inconsistency of your thinking. Which is still inconsistent by the way.
“But I am still curious that you are unable to direct me to any political party that you could actually recommend that you sympathise and support which makes me think they are as insignificant as we may be.”
You are in Britain. I am not British. I haven’t a clue of the political landscape of the left in your country. Doubtless there are many left-wing groups you could seek to align yourself with were you prone to do so.
“What key-words did you enter in your search to bring you here? What were you looking for on the internet? What intrigued you enough that you chose to engage with us?”
I don’t remember what sequence of events led me to this site. I just thought yours was a serious socialist website that gave the opportunity to post in forums. Little did I know that you’re not serious at all and that you hate every socialist in the world but the handful of other eccentrics who make up your “party”.
“The social services have been improved substantially to those who previously were deprived of access.”
That is an honest assessment of the findings.
“The word of caution expressed is that this approval is entirely dependant upon economic success.”
That too is true.
“This is crucial for anyone with an understanding of Marxist economics who can explain that economic crises are unavoidable features, regardless of whether free enterprise, mixed economy or centralized command economy.”
2008 and the COVID crisis barely effected China. Explain that.
“True Scotsman may claim China is immune, arguing it is a much more planned economy, but a Marxist would dispute it. The global market in which China is a key-player is subject to the anarchy of production.”
As I understand it China’s economy is transitioning to a services economy which will reduce its dependence on the global market for its prosperity. But it is also building the BRI, a huge trading network with world class infrastructure and largely free of the threat of US imperialist sanction.
“There is no question that China is experiencing a prolonged boom, as did the USA post-WW2, but there are constant signs and signals within the economy of stress.”
You sound like Gordon G. Chang who predicted China would collapse in 2006 then 2011 then 2012 then 2016 then 2017. He’s no doubt saying the same thing about Evergreen. And yet China still hasn’t collapsed. He’s made a good living publishing his prognostications to credulous China-bashers. Perhaps you could do the same?
“We shall wait and see what happens when the balloon inevitably bursts.”
The CCP is highly competent. I’ve no doubt they’ll continue to manage their economy with finesse.
“But as an aside on surveys, can I mention the fact that Finland is constantly top of the happiness league while China is currently at No. 52”
Was Finland as poor as Haiti at the turn of the century? What a feeble attempt at discrediting China. Anyway, as I’ve said, China will have a Gini coefficient equal to Finland’s by 2050 and will be communist by 2121. Then, finally, your sect will have no more excuses for hating them. Scratch that, I’m sure you’ll manage to think of something.
“So what you are saying to us is that you have no knowledge of any political party whatsoever that reflects your own personal political position, other than that the Chinese Communist Party meets with your approval.”
I’m sorry that my position displeases you. Does that mean no pudding before bedtime?
“You are telling us is that our new party policy should now be to advocate for political change by promoting the interests of China”
I don’t see how noting the success of the CCP’s program is promoting China’s interests. Please explain.
“as an example of progress and not only endorse it but also emulate it.”
I said no such thing. China’s model cannot be emulated unless your country were to have 1.4 billion people. Only India or perhaps the US could hope to emulate the Chinese way of doing things. What you could do though is stop parroting imperialist and reactionary talking points about China. But from what little I know of your merry band of haters, that’s going to be a bridge too far.
“We should also reject the hundreds and hundreds of analyses of Stalin in our archives, not written in hindsight but contemporary criticism.”
I don’t know. It would depend what they say. But probably, yes.
“And that this will broaden our appeal to ordinary fellow workers and lift us out of obscurity as a sectarian cult.”
No, but it would be a good start. To broaden your appeal you’d need to stop being a meme of left-wing sectarianism.
“Am I getting you right?
If not you can correct me.”
I believe I have done so.
“Most hardcore Maoists do not support the government of China since the coup to the gang of four what they call the gang of five because it includes Mao Tse Tung. One of the largest Maoist group is RCPUSA”
Lucky for me I’m not a hardcore Maoist then, I guess. I’m just a worker who reads.
“There are 90 million Socialists in China”
“Another lie, one of many it seems.”
“No evidence to back this up and no context?
I could fill in the missing gaps, have stab in the dark?”Well, it’s a good thing I didn’t tell it then, isn’t it? I said there were 90 million communists not socialists.
“In 2019, the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) had about 91.91 million members, making it the second largest political party in the world.”
Care to eat your words now James or would you prefer to do so after lunch?
“Most of the high level officials are capitalists”
Citation needed.
“The Unified Socialist Party of Venezuela has more than eight millions members, and it is a nationalist party that only advocates for capitalist reforms, and they support the reactionary government of Iran, Siria, North Korea, Vietnam and Cuba, and the so called Arab nationalists, and they reject the real conception of socialism.”
And this is why nobody likes you. You’re a hateful and irrelevant little clique of naval gazers.
“If by any chance we have a companion party in China, North Korea, and Cuba all the members are going to be locked down or taken to jail, the same case would have been in the Soviet Union.”
I can not speak to DPRK or Cuba but you most certainly would not be “locked down” or “taken to jail” in China. China has many opposition parties. If you were intellectually curious at all, you’d already know that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_China
As to your claims about the USSR, well, who can say?
“We have a member of a companion party in Japan probably he has not found that organization with a large membership and a big incidence within the working class”
Japan has a fairly large Communist Party numbering some 18,000 branches. I suggest he joins a branch. They’re actual socialists, by the way, not play actors.
“And this is why nobody likes you. You’re a hateful and irrelevant little clique of naval gazers.”
No, because we advocate socialism and nothing but, countering the lies of so called ‘left’ opponents.
Those pseudo socialists are generally mired in support for confused or duplicitious, (take your pick) Leninist, Stalinist, Trotskyist, distortions of Marx with a very few honourable individual exceptions who end up often, expelled from their respective parties for deviation from the leaders official line.
As our DOP states,
7:That as all political parties are but the expression of class interests, and as the interest of the working class is diametrically opposed to the interests of all sections of the master class, the party seeking working class emancipation must be hostile to every other party.
Political parties of the left, right and centre, claim to be working for the betterment of society. Because society functions in the interests of the capitalist class, it is clear that these parties are then supporting the interests of the capitalist class. History shows us that no matter what these parties say, when elected they administer capitalism in the only way it can be administered – in the interests of the capitalist class.
Each of them has their own idea of how to run capitalism, often stealing the ideas of their supposed political opposites. The reforms that they implement must reflect economic reality. If they do not, they will not get re-elected – until the next party fails to reflect that reality. There is no way that capitalism can meet the needs of the majority, but all of these parties pretend it can if only they find the right plan. None of them have any really new ideas, only rehashed reforms that have failed in the past. Voting for any of these parties is voting for capitalism, forever.
Socialists are therefore hostile, not in the sense of committing violent acts against other parties or their members, but to the ideas of those parties which support capitalism.
____________________________ ” The emancipation of the working classes must be conquered by the working classes themselves. We cannot, therefore, co-operate with people who openly state that the workers are too uneducated to emancipate themselves and must be freed from above by philanthropic big bourgeois and petty bourgeois.”
(1879 Marx and Engels )
Read you own darn Wikki link.
The minor parties must accept the “leading role” of the CPC as a condition of their continued existence.[5] According to Human Rights Watch, these parties “play an advisory rather than an oppositional role”.[6] The Chinese political system allows for the participation of some non-CPC members (independents) and members of minor parties in the National People’s Congress (NPC), but they are vetted by the CPC.
They participate in government over the proletariat.
Human Rights Watch is an arm of the US State Department and Wikipedia entirely untrustworthy in its value judgements about left-wing organisations and figures. If you weren’t already aware of such facts then you lot are even more hopeless than I thought. I merely provided the link because the parties are all listed there in one simple chart.
“Was Finland as poor as Haiti at the turn of the century?”
In the 19th Century, Scandinavia was suffering famine, resulting in mass emigrations. A study of North American socialist movements would show the existence of numerous Finnish-language socialist organisations.
“2008 and the COVID crisis barely effected China. Explain that.”
Covid did have a serious impact on the Chinese economy.
COVID_China2.pdf (wisc.edu)
As regards the 2008 Recession, one country’s misfortune is another opportunity.
USA replaced the British Empire and Germany post-WWI and WW2. The Soviet economy proved incapable of competing.
But the 2008 recession did result in a 45% drop in its exports one of the largest trade collapses in world history since the Great Depression. It was not immune and had to redirect production to its vast still untapped domestic market.
It is conceded by all economists that the Chinese economy rebounded quicker and stronger than the US and a larger proportion of growth has been centred in China. Some say because its SOE, still followed Keynesian economics and that re-directing business is always easier when governments have more control.
Why associate me with Gordon Chang who you say predicted various economic collapses after I had already said to you that recessions are unpredictable, meaning their cause, timing and location cannot be determined in advance. I simply stated accepted conventional Marxist economic theory to you. Or do you reject Marxian analysis?
“You are in Britain. I am not British. I haven’t a clue of the political landscape of the left in your country. Doubtless there are many left-wing groups you could seek to align yourself with were you prone to do so.”
You appear to believe that our position is one of British parochialism but we are sub-titled, The World Socialist Movement. I myself have not resided in the UK for several years but lived formerly in South India and now SE Asia.
As I said we consider ourselves a world socialist party, so where else do you believe there are socialist organisations that you wish us to join. Again I request your help in directing us to those parties you recommend. One now is the 270,000 strong Japanese Communist Party. Very much larger than ourselves but still relatively weak, polling less than 10% of the electorate.
Why have you yourself not joined it? Or have you? Perhaps you believe I am invading your rights to privacy by asking about your own political affiliations when you seem so ready to comment on our own.When I suggested you advocate we adopt the Chinese model you actually agree it is possible to emulate it, “Only India or perhaps the US could hope to emulate the Chinese way of doing things.”
The Indian BJP Hindutva nationalists are apparently the world largest political party. As I implied before, might is not necessarily right. You wouldn’t consider Modi progressive, would you?
And to clarify, there is a great difference between those who self-identify defining themselves as socialists and whether they actually hold socialist views or not. That was the explanation that some disputed that there were 90 million socialists in China. They were not arguing that there were not 90 million CCP members.
HRW becomes valid when its reports such as those against Israel are acceptable to you.
Amnesty International suffers from the same criticisms that its findings are to be recommended and accepted only when it is in accord with your own political position.
But rather than simply a blanket rejection of the legitimacy of all these types of organisations, think-tanks and NGOs, you do as we do, examine their evidence and then reach a conclusion.
We do not make a priori condemnations and rejections, do we?
You do not have to be British in order to be a socialist, we are not nationalists, we are citizen of the world. Nationalism is a bourgeois conception, and it is also by the ruling class to divide the world working class.
He is asking you to mention any group in Japan or any group around the world and he is also questioning your membership, and yau are going around the bushes
Now you sound like George Bush who said that the whole world hate the Americans. We do not hate anybody, we stand on our principles, and we do not find any common principles with the left and others so called comunists parties which are just apologists of state capitalism, and want to run capitalism in the name of the working class
We have companion party in different countries, we have members from different parts of the world, we have one companion party in India, Canada, USA, Australia, and members in different countries who speak different language,
The SPGB is part of the WSM ( World Socialist Movement ) and none of our companion parties do not make alliance with left wingers, social democrats, and the capitalist class, and we do not support the false concept of anti imperialism, and any so called national liberation movement, we only have one single program which is socialism/communism
Socialism and reformism are two different political currents.
What more serious do not want us to be ? Nobody is holding you for posting in this forum. I remember that I came to the WSM several years ago looking for answers to my question, and I found the answers here. I have looked around the world ( and I knew many organizations and individuals ) and never found another one close or similar to the WSM
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