Hong Kong
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Alan,
Even more. Lenin was not able to fool around with the Socialist Party
“In this forum we have also challenged white nationalists, black nationalist, Trumpist and Neo Nazis and they have left when they see that their ideas can not challenge ours ideas”
I left because your ideas are insufferable. No-one likes zealots. Your Plato’s forms version of socialism is laughable. You have no comrades to speak of because of this therefore no power thus condemning yourselves to oblivion. Marx would be so proud of you all.
It looks that you have not read the works of Karl Marx and Engels because the society that we describe is the one that was described by them, it is not the society described by Lenin and the Bolsheviks. Do you call Platonism the Materialist Conception of History ? We have been dealing with the same concept for more than 100 years. It looks that you do not know the idealist conceptions of Plato either, and also in his time it was impossible to have certain socialist conceptions
No-one likes zealots
The biggest zealots are the Christians and the have millions of members around the world
Well, you are defending one of the biggest cultists which have existed and they are Lenin, Stalin and Mao. During the WW2 period the Russian Orthodox Church said that Stalin was the apostle of gods which was going to defeat the devil of Nazism, and they had stained glass windows showing the figure of Stalin as a saint with an aura on his head. In China in every factory they had a picture of Mao which had to be praised like a god similar to a religious cult.No wonder Hoxha call him the new Confucius
Such an insignificant organisation that True Scotsman has a need to return and this time to cite the rags to riches narrative so popular with the wealthy class yet he doesn’t recognise the irony that he promotes the rise of a new ruling class.
“What is the point in countering your assertions with my own?
You simply refer to the sources such as the China Labor Bulletin as biased Washington puppets
https://clb.org.hk/And if I use the China Worker website, I am resorting to sectarian Trotskyists”
Exactly. Don’t refer to Washington think tankers or Trotskyist cultists and I’ll take you slightly more seriously.
“Whereas your own authority in the Chinese state is unimpeachable.”
I said no such thing. Instead of poorly employing rhetorical tricks try challenging my ideas.
“As you now acknowledge”
As opposed to when I didn’t acknowledge the fact? Which was…when exactly?
“China is little different from any other capitalist country in the world. ”
Demonstrably false. How many “capitalist” countries deliberately move to wipe $3 trillion worth of value from their largest companies? Your understanding of capitalist countries is deeply flawed, comrade.
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/09/01/investing/china-investment-tech-crackdown-mic-intl-hnk/index.html
“But you choose to defend it when its corporations operating in Africa has been guilty of anti-worker practices”
So throw the baby out with the bath water? A few instances of bad practice means only bad practice? Ignore reality all you like while pushing US and EU narratives about Chinese debt traps. It’s all garbage. I’ve got the links to prove it but you’re not interested in the truth. You can’t reason someone out of a position they haven’t reasoned themselves into.
“As for “building socialism”, there is very little sign of that. Certainly no more so than any other nation on earth.”
There are plenty of signs of that but you wear your obscurantist ideology like a blindfold and will never see.
“I have heard this argument that because we remain committed to the traditional understanding of socialism, one that even pre-dates Marx, and promote it as the accurate interpretation, we are somehow committing the true Scotsman fallacy.”
You are the madman screaming at the wall who thinks everyone else is crazy but themself. Have you never asked why it is that none but a handful of the similarly deluded have embraced your quixotic quest? Does it make you feel morally superior that you alone are the keepers of the flame of socialist “truth”. Would Marx be proud that you’ve achieved absolutely nothing through a lifetime of alienating fellow socialists? What a joke.
“We said the Russian Revolution would fail to accomplish its aims.”
And you were proved wrong for it did achieve its aims. It built a workers’ state, however briefly, that smashed the combined might of capitalist/fascist reaction, ended famine, electrified the country, eliminated illiteracy, provided free healthcare, culture and housing, guaranteed work and on and on. But tell me, what has your failing little sect ever achieved? This will be funny…
“Shall I suggest that 1 billion Hindus are correct? 1 billion Muslims? 1 billion Catholics? The 60 million Americans who voted for Trump or the 80 million that voted for the lesser evil Biden…do you see where I am going.”
Actually, I don’t know where you’re going. Spell it out.
“For decades in their lives, Marx and Engels had only a few close correspondents sharing their socialist ideas. No mass socialist party.
Numbers mean nothing when it comes to ideas. You are appealing to might is right.”
And that is why you will remain an irrelevant footnote in the history of socialism. Because you don’t have the wherewithal to join forces with seriously commited comrades and seize power. You’d much rather tilt at windmills.
“Such an insignificant organisation that True Scotsman has a need to return”
You are completely insignificant but I’ve got some free time and nothing much better to do, plus, I’ve been hounded by your replies to my posts the last few days.
“this time to cite the rags to riches narrative so popular with the wealthy class yet he doesn’t recognise the irony that he promotes the rise of a new ruling class.”
You really are confused. One minute you say “we will never be led by the bourgeoisie” the next “we will never be led by the proletarian”. Space aliens then? You’re a joke.
Lenin was not able to fool around with the Socialist Party
Lest we offer critics ammunition, let us be clear that it is extremely doubtful if Lenin had ever heard of us.
However, your statement is true regards the many followers of Lenin who tried to convince the Socialist Party to emulate the Russian Revolution despite vast differences in conditions and circumstances.
They sent an invitation for the Third International
I’m sorry but I just don’t follow your logic when you cite a fall in the stock-market value of shares held by capitalists demonstrates a form of socialism.
Governments make decisions every day that either drops or raise the prices of shares on the stock-exchange.
You even ignore the statement
“…some of the biggest names in asset management say it’s still a good time to invest. They say recent regulatory moves were necessary and overdue, and China’s growth story remained attractive… Many of the biggest names on Wall Street, including BlackRock , the world’s largest asset manager, Fidelity and Goldman Sachs , are still advising clients to keep buying…”And tell us how their returns and dividends arise if it is not the extraction of surplus-value from the worker, expropriated by the employing-class whether they be private individuals, joint-stock companies (ie corporations) or state-owned entities. Basic ABC of Marx’s ‘Labor Theory of Value’
But I am willing to heed your advice.
“…you don’t have the wherewithal to join forces with seriously commited comrades and seize power…”
Please inform me of the parties and organizations of these comrades and where they can be contacted.
You can provide me with a list, can’t you? Perhaps, you can start with your own memberships.
You are not saying anything new, we have said it since 1917 that socialism has not been tried in any place, but you are contradicting yourselves because in other message you have said that North Korea is a society controlled by the workers.
Workers do not have a state that is completely false, the slaves can not oppress themselves, it looks that you do not know the nature and the origin of the state apparatus. Engels and Marx described the real concept of the state
Before Marx there was a movement known as the Utopian socialists, and their eperiments failed completely because they tried to reform capitalism. That process was explained by Engels, you have not read his about on the origin of the Utopian socialists and he clearly indicate that socialism/communism is a product of the working class.
Marx and Engels were very active in the different movements of their times, and they participated in different organizations that existed in that time. There are several volumes on their 50 volumes collection which show that they were very active, even more Franz Mehring on Marx biography said that Engels was surprised to see that Marx was doing so much work at the same . That is the conception of many bourgeois writers who said that Marx spent most of his time in the London library.
Russia was the last country in Europe and around the world which was able to have independent capitalist internal development, all the development was based on the capitalist mode of production of Russia and the enormous economic exploitation of the working class, that is the same argumentation given by the Leninist and the Stalin, but they never explained the human cost of that capitalist development, it was not a socialist development because socialism is not based on wage slavery and production of surplus value, and the law of value, it is something that Marx explained clearly that the law of value is also applicable to capitalism.
I have seen organizations with thousands of members who have collapsed and vanished from the face of the earth, and there was an stampede of members and the SPGB/WSM has existed for more than 103 years and we continue publishing our monthly journal
For decades in their lives, Marx and Engels had only a few close correspondents sharing their socialist ideas. No mass socialist party.
Have you read the Gotha Program written by Marx ? Have you heard about the First and the Second International ?
“As you now acknowledge”
As opposed to when I didn’t acknowledge the fact? Which was…when exactly?
“China is little different from any other capitalist country in the world. ”
Demonstrably false.You stated in message #221791
True Scotsman – “China’s is a mixed economy like every other nation on earth. They have capitalist enterprises and nationalised enterprises.” – Your words, not mine.
As for your claim that the profits go to the uplift of the people, every capitalist in the last 300 years says the exact same, with their trickle-down theory and that the taxes they pay to the government pays for the welfare and social services, that their investment upkeeps public utilities, that it is out of the generosity of the good hearts that even hire people to work for them and pay such good wages.
But you believe the Chinese oligarchs and the state bureaucrats actually are all altruists because of some sort of spiritual and moral quality, not possessed by Western industrialists, if I recall another of your inferences from some post or other.
And if you read a little bit deeper, we say we will not be led by anyone, bourgeois or proletarian, charlatan or sincere.
As Eugene Debs said, if you let someone lead you into the promised land, you will permit another to so easily lead you out again
MS, for clarity, TS is quoting me where I said for many years Marx and Engels were practically on their own. Their socialist circle probably a lot less than even our current membership
Indeed they created no political party but were obliged to join and then proceed to try and influence them.
“For decades in their lives, Marx and Engels had only a few close correspondents sharing their socialist ideas. No mass socialist party.”
What cognitive dissonance you display. Engels was a member of the bourgeoisie! How dare you mention his name! Scoundrel! Heretic!
“Have you read the Gotha Program written by Marx ? Have you heard about the First and the Second International ?”
Have you heard of the infantile disorder of left-wing communism? No wonder you so hate Lenin. His words cut too close to the bone.
“But you believe the Chinese oligarchs and the state bureaucrats actually are all altruists because of some sort of spiritual and moral quality, not possessed by Western industrialists, if I recall another of your inferences from some post or other.”
The Chinese government is the most competent government on Earth. It has a 96 per cent approval rating. Most of the top leadership are scientists/ engineers and horror of horrors…dedicated communists. Your pathetic little 2-minute hate group could learn quite a lot from them.
“And if you read a little bit deeper, we say we will not be led by anyone, bourgeois or proletarian, charlatan or sincere.”
Right, no leaders. How’s that been working out for you? What’s the view like from the edge of oblivion?
“As Eugene Debs said, if you let someone lead you into the promised land, you will permit another to so easily lead you out again”
You do know he ran for President, right? You are funny.
Have you heard of the infantile disorder of left-wing communism?
And have you read Herman Gorter’s reply?
https://www.marxists.org/archive/gorter/1920/open-letter.htm
But please indulge my curiosity, True Scotsman, and answer which parties and organisations that you approve of that I should view as my comrades and enlist in? Simple enough request, isn’t it, since you urge us to do so.
And as for Engels being a factory manager, what a spectacular “gotcha” you have caught me out with. I suppose next you will say that because Marx married a member of the aristocracy and had a maid who he had an illegitimate child by, all his research I should therefore dismiss as invalid.
But what the materialist conception of history teaches us is that we should hold no store by the “great men” make history argument.
In fact, our obituary of Lenin makes that exact point
“So far was he from “changing the course of history”…it was the course of history which changed him”
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