Hong Kong
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“So far in this exchange I have maintained what I would consider a degree of civility towards you. However I now weary of your ad hominems.”
Hear! Hear!, Alan!
I am surprised by the degree of forbearance you display in your dealings with TrueScotman whose relentless reliance on ad homs – some very much below the belt – is proof enough, if proof were needed, just how weak are his actual substantive arguments. They serve merely as a distraction from the latter.
In any other forum but this he would have long ago been booted out as troll. Perhaps he needs to reflect on this and adjust his behaviour to something approaching what we might expect of an adult
BTW, we have copies of the transcripts of the Moscow trials in the party library, I’ve flicked through them, they were not free and fair trials.
“TS, i have admitted and explained why I have not read Furr.”
You haven’t read Furr because until a few days ago you’d never heard of him. Once you had you went to Anti-commi-pedia and got yourself a double helping of confirmation bias.
“I have now asked you to show me that you yourself have read Furr and understand his arguments sufficiently enough to communicate them”
Furr is a prolific author who has written dozens upon dozens of articles and books. I have not read everything he has ever written. In fact, my interest is much more related to WW2. I have read an article or two of his about Trotsky but am not particularly interested in the topic. The fact is, you chose the subject of Trotsky and the Moscow trials not me. So, you read his 170 pages and refute his arguments to your heart’s content. You wanna talk to me about Furr’s research surrounding WW2, then I’m game.
“So far in this exchange I have maintained what I would consider a degree of civility towards you. However I now weary of your ad hominems.”
No, you have not. You have implied I am a white supremacist. You wanna fling mud, well, that’s one of my favourite things to do. So bring it on.
“It is ironic that you become so indignant that I pointed out the overlap of your own views with a racist”
There is no overlap. Hitler was a vegetarian. Therefore vegetarian’s views overlap with Hitler’s. There’s dumb, there’s retarded then there’s Alan.
“when from the earliest posts I have defended the pro-democracy activists in Hong Kong from being judged instruments of the CIA and NED because they happen to share an anti-Beijing agenda with the protesters.”
They don’t just happen to “share” the same “agenda”. They’re being financed and working alongside foreign governments and intelligence agencies as I have amply demonstrated.
“In any other forum but this he would have long ago been booted out as troll. Perhaps he needs to reflect on this and adjust his behaviour to something approaching what we might expect of an adult”
Pot, meet kettle. So You can ask me BTW am I huffing glue? And you are taking the moral high ground? Lol
TS, If you were correct about the Moscow show trials (which I do not think for one moment that you are) by your admission all of these high level Bolsheviks were appointed to high position and were highly endorsed at one point or another by either Lenin and or Stalin.
Again if you are correct, this would mean that according to you, your two heroes, Lenin and Stalin made unbelievably spectacularly bad judgements about at least the following people:
Nikolai Bukharin (1888 – 1938)
Grigori Zinoviev (1883 – 1936)
Lev Kamenev (1883 – 1936)
Béla Kun (1886 – 1938)
Alexei Rykov (1881 – 1938)
Karl Radek (1885 – 1939)
Mikhail Tomsky (1880 – 1936)
Martemyan Ryutin (1890 – 1937)
Ivan Smirnov (1881–1936)
Ivar Smilga (1892 – 1938)
Arkady Rosengolts (1889 – 1938) —
Yevgeni Preobrazhensky (1886 – 1937)
Aleksandr Smirnov (1877 – 1938)
Nikolay Krestinsky (1883 – 1938)
Alexander Shliapnikov (1885 – 1937)
Andrei Bubnov (1883 – 1938)
Varvara Yakovleva (1884 – 1941)
Alexander Shotman (1880 – 1937)
Alexander Beloborodov (1891 – 1938)
Lev Karakhan (1889-1937)In fact of the 139 members and candidates of the Central Committee who were elected at the 17th Congress, 98 persons, i.e., 70 per cent, were arrested and shot (mostly in 1937-1938). Out of 1,966 delegates with either voting or advisory rights, 1,108 persons were arrested on charges of anti-revolutionary crimes.
You don’t need to take my word for the names and numbers of “traitors”, this information does not come from me, but rather from the minutes of The 18th Congress of the Russian Communist Party which was held during 10–21 March 1939 in Moscow and The Nineteenth Congress of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union which was held from 5 to 14 October 1952. You are welcome to check my figures they are figures agreed on by Stalin and signed off by the Central Committe of the Russian Communist Party.
If you are correct, then your evidence would show Lenin and Stalin must be the worst political leaders and worse judges of character ever born.
“Lenin and Stalin made unbelievably spectacularly bad
judgements about at least the following people…”Like I’ve said, I’m not much interested in the trials. But saying Lenin and Stalin should have known the listed names were traitors is ridiculous. Sukarno should have known Suharto was a traitor, Caesar that Brutus was a traitor, etc? You think traitors don’t exist?
When you lead your revolution (Lol) I’m sure there won’t be a single traitor. You will never misjudge anothers’ character because you are a Marxist superhero, armed, no doubt, with a lasso of truth and x-ray vision that can see into a man’s very soul. Am I right? Come on, I’m right, right?
“Lenin and Stalin made unbelievably spectacularly bad
judgements about at least the following people…”Like I’ve said, I’m not much interested in the trials. But saying Lenin and Stalin should have known the listed names were traitors is ridiculous. Sukarno should have known Suharto was a traitor, Caesar that Brutus was a traitor, etc? You think traitors don’t exist?
When you lead your revolution (Lol) I’m sure there won’t be a single traitor. You will never misjudge anothers’ character because you are a Marxist superhero, armed, no doubt, with a lasso of truth and x-ray vision that can see into a man’s very soul. Am I right? Come on, I’m right, right?
Is the sound I can hear accross the wide Atlantic, the noise of a desperate Maoist apologist, clutching straws?
For your information, we don’t have any need or use for leaders, we are a fully democratic organisation made up of class conscious revolutionary Socialists. We don’t need to lead or be led. Leaders are for sheep.
I think your understanding of politics relies more on Marvel Comics than the works of Marx and Engels.
“For your information, we don’t have any need or use for leaders”
Yeah, I know. Remind me, how many revolutions have you spontaneously erupted lately? One? Half? A quarter? Zero? Oh, yeah, zero. Is that what oblivion looks like? Well, you’re welcome to it. Enjoy.
The SPGB has never argued that spontaneous risings will bring about Socialism, quite the opposite. We disagree with your need for leaders (by the way is your Marvel alter ego “Sheep boy). Unlike you we have the same view as Engels
“ The time of surprise attacks, of revolutions carried through by small conscious minorities at the head of masses lacking consciousness is past. Where it is a question of a complete transformation of the social organisation, the masses themselves must be in on it, must themselves have grasped what is at stake, what they are fighting for, body and soul.’”This article makes some relevant points about Western leftists romanticising the current regime in China. To add to the dossier, so we get all points of view.
The comments section is also interesting.
Yeah, I know. Remind me, how many revolutions have you spontaneously erupted lately? One? Half? A quarter? Zero? Oh, yeah, zero. Is that what oblivion looks like? Well, you’re welcome to it. Enjoy.
At least, TrueScotsman, we are socialists; you sadly are not. You are a bootlicking supporter of the billionaire-friendly Chinese capitalist regime. The only kind of revolution your way of thinking could ever countenance is a bourgeois-capitalist one.
True, a socialist revolution may never materialise. That would be your loss as well as ours as workers, sneer at though you will. Your rhetorical question – how many revolutions have we spontaneously erupted lately? – only highlights how remote and opposed are your ideas to revolutionary socialism. It is not up to the SPGB to foment a socialist revolution. Such a revolution can only be made by the working class as a whole; it cannot be led or imposed from above. If it were (and your rhetorical question implies that you think it should be) it would not, and could not, possibly be a socialist revolution
So keep up with sneering if you must; it only shows you up for who you are. An apologist for capitalism
The only organization in the entire world ( Europe, Africa, Asia, Australia, Islands, ) which has written objectively and with solid evidence about the Moscow Trial, Trotsky, Stalin, Lenin, and most of the personalities of the whole process of the so-called Russian Revolution ( or Bolshevik coup ) is the Socialist Party of Great Britain and the World Socialist Movement, and I can challenge anybody to present pieces of evidence against what I have said, and I have all the best arguments because I was part of that perverse ideology when I was a very young person. I can clean my butts with the evidence of the Stalinists and Leninists, like Wez: Perverse ideologies
I have confronted many leftists who have not been able to defame the Socialist Party and who have not been able to contradict what we have written about the whole Bolshevik process, many have left like little poppy with the tails between their legs, one of the biggest defenders of the reactionary capitalist’s government of China and the government of Putin is the Latin American left and I have confronted many of them and they have not been able to prove that the Chinese government is not a capitalist and imperialist nation
The member of this forum know that True Scotsman has not read anything about this whole process and the history and index of the socialist Party and he has not presented any pieces of evidence because he is only a political sniper who has read pieces of opinion from other ass kissers of the Chinese government, which is the same thing as being an ass kisser of the US government, he just left the Yankees to take the Chinese capitalists he does not even know anything about Maoism and Stalinism either.
We are answering all these false allegations made by this amateur because we want to show to other members of this forum who are not members of the socialist party that we are the only genuine socialist organization that has existed for more than 100 years, we can call ourselves a university on socialism/communism, and we can prove that too.
The arguments that he has published trying to ridicule us show who far he is from the real conception of socialism because the only ones who think that an individual or small group of peoples can make a revolution are the right-wingers, the amateurs of the leftist movement, the lover of guerrillas groups, terrorists, admirers of militarism, and bourgoise nationalists, and peoples with localized mentality, and none of them have a clue of what socialism really is, and most of them do not the know process of the chinese revolution, who was an anti agrarian revolt, or a populist revolt ( similar to the Russian populists ) the socialist party by itself is not going to make any revolution, the revolution is going to be made by the world working class armed with socialist consciousness, and the desires to establish a post capitalist society ( it is not capitalism within capitalism ) and we do not have too many members because we are not reformists, and most workers are inclined toward reformism, and we have existed for so many years because we do not have any leaders, and we do not have internal fight for leadership which has produced many divisions among the left, I lived those internal fights
Just read his answers to all the question that we have made, and they are just the answers of a political little child playing with toys and who have been confronted by matured socialists, this forum is for peoples who are willing to learn something new and for matured political peoples who want also to learn something new and expand their socialist knowledge.
Personally, I think that dealing with this man is a waste of time, conserve your arguments for people who want to learn something new that is logical and coherent, we do not need that childish argumentation, they are for people who have dedicated their lives to video games, and empty phrases and empty expression, this is what the left-wingers call lumpen
TS,i never accused you of being a white supremacist. I said you have a strange bed-fellow who is and who shares your pro-Stalinist admiration.
The overlap of opinion is very clear.
Both you and Kerry Bolton, the racist, have praised Stalin for his nationalist and patriotic policies towards Russia.
You may have differing reasons for your positions but the effect of them are the same – being apologetic to the rule of Stalin and white-washing the show trials.
Indeed, I never heard of Furr until you referred to him, some weeks ago now, and not days, and it was to recommend his research concerning Stalin and Stalin’s Russia.
I have gone beyond Trotsky and the show trials and argued that Furr is also been shown to be wrong about the Katyn Forest massacre. And your only response is that there is a conspiratorial cover-up of the complicity of the Germans in committing the crime. The opening of archives showing the culpability of the Soviets and Stalin are fake and therefore exonerates the NKVD.
So I accept your challenge on WW2. Offer your best evidence that the Katyn Massacre was committed by the Germans and not the USSR
The revolt of the bolsheviks was not spontaneous, it was a planned coup, similar to the coup given by the military in several countries and then they established a juntas. Martov said that Lenin was a provocateur
When the Stalinist in the USA were accused of treason they said that it was an unfair law or act, but they supported the Moscow trial and the execution of all the members of the central committee who have prior collaborated with Lenin, Trotsky and Stalin.
It would be better to say that the whole leadership of the Bolshevik party and the Central Committee of the party was integrated by traitors including Lenin.
They also tried to accuse the wife of Lenin of treason because she supported the opposition and then she withdrew her support to the opposition, it was not a good political tactic to execute her because she was very popular among women and she was an educator
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