Hong Kong
- This topic has 637 replies, 13 voices, and was last updated 3 years, 1 month ago by
.
-
Posts
-
I’m a regular reader of Pambazuka News
https://www.pambazuka.org/Perhaps for a different perspective you might wish to read and is partly based on David Harvey’s theory, someone you recently recommended
I previously touched on the fact that Mombasa port will fall into Chinese lenders hands when the loan is defaulted
As for your responses to the invasion of Poland and the Katyn Massacre.
The joint parade of German and Soviet troops at Brest on the 22nd September is well-documented.
At Lwów German troops ended their siege to allow the Soviets to continue it.
The Poles didn’t know about the secret protocol and so they didn’t expect the Soviet invasion of 17 September 1939 even if some of the intelligence services were aware of an unpublished section to the pact.
Oh, isn’t he just adorable?
“The Government of the German Reich and the Government of the U.S.S.R. determine as the boundary of their respective national interests in the territory of the former Polish state the line marked on the attached map, which shall be described in more detail in a supplementary protocol.” (My emphasis added).
“The necessary reorganization of public administration will be effected in the areas west of the line specified in article I by the Government of the German Reich, in the areas east of this line by the Government of the U.S.S.R.”
“Both parties will tolerate in their territories no Polish agitation which affects the territories of the other party. They will suppress in their territories all beginnings of such agitation and inform each other concerning suitable measures for this purpose.”
“As soon as the Government of the U.S.S.R. shall take special measures on Lithuanian territory to protect its interests, the present German-Lithuanian border, for the purpose of a natural and simple boundary delineation, shall be rectified in such a way that the Lithuanian territory situated to the southwest of the line marked on the attached map should fall to Germany.
“Further it is declared that the economic agreements now in force between Germany and Lithuania shall not be affected by the measures of the Soviet Union referred to above.”
It’s there in the primary sources.
And this line: “This protocol shall be treated by both parties as strictly secret.”
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/addsepro.aspI dunno, I think that means the secret protocol must have actually been a secret.
I think a government fleeing into exile does not extinguish the existence of a country, in anyplace other than the most convoluted of apologetics. The Sovs imposed a government on a people by hostile means and carved up a hegemonic interested, irrespective of the wishes or preferences of the people in those lands. Some might call that imperialism.
“The Government of the German Reich and the Government of the U.S.S.R. determine as the boundary of their respective national interests in the territory of the former Polish state”
Yes, the protocol was to come into effect if Germany defeated Poland militarily. That’s just what happened. The USSR entered Polish territory (former Soviet territory stolen by Poland in 1921), upon the ignominious flight of the Polish government into internment in Rumania. There was no Soviet invasion.
“in the areas east of this line by the Government of the U.S.S.R.”
Had the cowardly Polish government fled to this area they could have reestablished operations under Soviet protection. Instead the craven politicians fled into voluntary internment in Rumania. Earning themselves the inglorious honour of being the most cowardly government of WW2.
“Further it is declared that the economic agreements now in force between Germany and Lithuania shall not be affected by the measures of the Soviet Union referred to above”
The Baltics were all in with the Germans anyway.
“After the Russian Revolution in 1917, Germany conceived the geopolitical strategy of Mitteleuropa, a regional network of puppet states that would serve as a buffer zone.”
“I dunno, I think that means the secret protocol must have actually been a secret.”
Well, it wasn’t secret so…
“I think a government fleeing into exile does not extinguish the existence of a country”
It wouldn’t ordinarily but the cowardly Poles fled into a neutral country. They were therefore arrested. The state no longer existed. That’s international law. Don’t like it? Tough potatoes.
“in anyplace other than the most convoluted of apologetics”
That’s the way the world works.
” The Sovs imposed a government on a people by hostile means and carved up a hegemonic interested, irrespective of the wishes or preferences of the people in those lands. Some might call that imperialism.”
Nope, the Soviets prevented the entire country of Poland falling into Nazi hands. Would that outcome have been preferable to you? I’m sure you then would have blamed Stalin for not at least moving up to the Vistuala river and saving the poor, stupid Poles from themselves. But then, you people are hypocritical reactionaries. So, I’d expect nothing less of you.
TS has difficulty understanding whether it is confidential bank loan conditions or international agreements, the difference between keeping secret and making public.
“TS has difficulty understanding whether it is confidential bank loan conditions or international agreements, the difference between keeping secret and making public.”
Don’t give up your day job, Alan. Comedy just ain’t your thing.
Alan
Those are proletarian, and the possession of capital does not produce any influence on the state and the economic basis, it is a new Political Economy. That reminds me when the Maoists were supporting the coup against the so called Gangs of Four ( other call It the gangs of five ) and they started to talk about the Four Modernization, and some groups were saying that taking loans from capitalist banks and establishing enterprises from the western capitalist power and the USA will never affect the socialist state. It is the same stand of the Cuban government in regard to the European investments in Tourism and others sectors of the economy. Only fools believed that
The situation started before the so called coup, it started in 1949, and it was solidified when Mao Tse Tung made agreements with the Western Capitalists and the USA, by that time the western capitalist did not say anything about china because capitalism was not fully developed, but when they started to fight for world hegemony, and to compete with them, they changed gear. This is another indication that socialism in one country is another fallacy like the Bolsheviks and the Albanians, Cuba, North Korea, Vietnam and Venezuela.
Another seasoning for the same soup, which shows what was said here that China also collaborated with reactionaries government including the government of Augusto Pinochet
https://www.marxists.org/history/erol/ncm-5/pl-china-9.htm
The Four Modernization was a pretext to expand the further developing of capitalism which started in 1949, and the China-US treaty,https://www.marxists.org/subject/china/peking-review/1978/PR1978-52.pdf. This is Peking Review describing the economic development in Agriculture, Infrastructure, and Technology and most of these were in part financed by the IMF and the World Bank continue making loans to China, but according to some leftist groups those loans do not affect the socialist state
This is the seasoning of the same soup. A Marxist Leninist Stalinism describing Maoism: https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hoxha/works/imp_rev/imp_ch6.htm“Perhaps for a different perspective you might wish
to read and is partly based on David Harvey’s
theory, someone you recently recommended”In the past Harvey was convinced that China was state capitalist. He’s no longer quite so sure. The views expressed in the article are therefore out of date as far as Harvey is concerned. Watch the Harvey Youtube video I linked to a couple days back to hear his more nuanced opinion.
“I previously touched on the fact that Mombasa port
will fall into Chinese lenders hands when the loan
is defaulted”China will almost certainly restructure the loan as it always does.
“The joint parade of German and Soviet troops at
Brest on the 22nd September is well-documented.”The so-called “parade” was a formal ceding of territory from the Nazis to the Soviets as per the “spheres of influence” agreement. It was not a victory parade.
“At Lwów German troops ended their siege to allow
the Soviets to continue it.”As mentioned above, the Polish state no longer existed as the perfidious Polish government had fled into voluntary internment in Rumania without even alerting much of their army. Armies only legally exist in service to a state. The Polish state was no more, its army was, in a legal sense, nothing but an armed mob.
“The Poles didn’t know about the secret protocol
and so they didn’t expect the Soviet invasion of
17 September 1939 even if some of the intelligence
services were aware of an unpublished section to
the pact.”You are not privy to what the members of the Polish government did or did not know prior to their ignominious escape into imprisonment. They should have taken their chances east of the Vistula, where they would have been under Soviet protection, or gone down with the ship. The cowards chose to abandon their countryman and save their worthless hides.
As already mentioned, the USSR had tried to save Poland by offering to station a million man army on ts border with Nazi Germany. The Poles preferred national suicide.
To be honest, TS, I am a bit surprised that you are even able to post on this website, after all you have to complete a simple mathmatical problem in order to log in. From the evidence of your postings, you seem to struggle when it comes to adding 2 + 2 with regard to the so called communist party of China.
Given your failure to answer much more complex questions, a fairly simple question for you then.
As Alan has pointed out the top 30 Chinese Billionaires have accumulated $866.1 Billion. How have this top 30 capitalists accumulated that wealth, if not by exploiting the labour power of the employees that have worked for them?
An additional question to follow up is it possible for these exploitative individuals to achieve that wealth without out the active involvement of the Chinese State and by implication the Chinese “communist” Party.
If, as is clearly the case, these billionaires are able to accumulate their capital only through the exploitation of these workers and the Chinese “communist” Party is complicit with this expoitation, how can you, as self proclaimed Marxist support this historical and ongoing exploitation of these members of the working class?
“To be honest, TS, I am a bit surprised that you are even able to post on this website, after all you have to complete a simple mathmatical problem in order to log in.”
Bijou Drains, you clearly inherited the retard gene from both your parents. I wouldn’t be having any children were I you, or is it too late? Well, little retards are still cute I suppose.
“As Alan has pointed out the top 30 Chinese Billionaires have accumulated $866.1 Billion. How have this top 30 capitalists accumulated that wealth, if not by exploiting the labour power of the employees that have worked for them?”
China’s is a mixed economy. They are in a transition period now. I am opposed to billionaires as are many Chinese. The CCP is reigning in the wealth and influence of the billionaires as we speak. China will be fully communist by 2121. The billionaires are living on borrowed time.
“An additional question to follow up is it possible for these exploitative individuals to achieve that wealth without out the active involvement of the Chinese State and by implication the Chinese “communist” Party.”
The CCP was not interested in equalising poverty. They recognised the power of capitalism to rapidly advance the productive forces. But they have never allowed the capitalists to override the priorities of the state ad its people.
“If, as is clearly the case, these billionaires are able to accumulate their capital only through the exploitation of these workers and the Chinese “communist” Party is complicit with this expoitation,”
They have, and, as Marxists, they recognise the contradictions and dangers of allowing too large a role for private enterprise. Which is why are are moving to reign it in.
“how can you, as self proclaimed Marxist support this historical and ongoing exploitation of these members of the working class?”
Because the standard of living of 1.4 billion people is rising, the Chinese people support their system because it is delivering the goods, its leaders are the most competent in the world, the country is anti-imperialist and is set to be fully communist by 2121.
China’s is a mixed economy. They are in a transition period now.
—————————————————————–
For Marx the transition was capitalism. Socialism is a pos capitalist society, therefore socialism and capitalism can not exist together. Tito and Kruschev were one of the founder of that conception and the Stalinists swept the floor with them.
In the capitalist society poverty is wage slavery, and China has millions of wage slaves, to eliminate poverty wage slaves must be eliminated
Private property is not the main characteristic of capitalism, in the Soviet Union they did not have private property in the traditional way and it was a capitalist society, the main characteristic is wage slavery.
The myth of the Transitional Society:
Lectures for student of socialism
This is one of the few organization which continue supporting China, and continue with the fallacy of Socialist Country and its so called Communist Party
It isn’t just the billionaires, is it? There still remains the multi-millionaires and the millionaires.
China’s high-net-worth individuals (personal total net worth, excluding residential property exceeds one million dollars) population was 1.32 million according to Chinese Banking Association.
26,700 ultra-high-net-worth-individuals), those whose assets are valued above US$30 million in 2019.
These figures may be different depending on source but it gives a clear indication of the wealth inequality that exists.
Wealth-X suggest an estimated 2 million high net worth (HNW) and almost 27,000 ultra high net worth (UHNW) individuals in 2019
Their vast wealth, at a total of $4.2trn, the ultra wealthy in China maintain a significantly higher combined wealth than the 2 million individuals at the ‘lowest’ wealth tier.
I don’t believe anybody seriously believes Xi intends to dispossess the rich. Rather, just like many other countries, even some conservative ruled ones, there may be higher taxes imposed.
Just as other countries propose reducing tax evasion Xi promises much the same.
- The topic ‘Hong Kong’ is closed to new replies.