Hong Kong
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“Should have Lenin rejected the Kaiser’s money?
Should have the 1916 Irish rebels refused the Kaiser’s help?”
Alan now asks why shouldn’t the CIA be funding and organising colour revolutions in nations the US targets for regime change.
Answer the question.
The maxim “the enemy of our enemy is our friend” has invariably been the practice.
Other than for ourselves, that is.
AidData keeps a huge database on official aid flows. It shows how much China appears to reward African countries that vote with it. Countries that support China do better. AidData reckons that if African countries voted with China an extra 10% of the time, they would get an 86% bump in official aid on average.
And yes, the US, the UK and the EU has the same policy – vote with us and get more aid. It is what we have been saying. Little difference.
Does the US,UK, EU prop up friendly dictatorships Yes. Does China? Yes. No difference.
Chinese support for BDS? Nope
Increasing trade deals with Israel
Partnering Israel with the Red-Med railway project as part of BRI
The management of the port of Haifa is shared with a Chinese corporation.
Israel ranks second only to Russia as a weapons system provider to China.
Israeli-Chinese military cooperation praised by the IDF
https://web.archive.org/web/20150924044419/https:/www.idf.il/1283-16842-en/Dover.aspx
It is still all about realpolitik. Xi is happy to reinforce Israeli power as long as it benefits China.
Once more I reiterate, there are no fundamental difference between imperialist nations that deserves working class support. None whatsoever.
His specialty is to be mouthpiece of the Chinese capitalists. He does not know world history. The government of China is collaborating with the reactionary government of Colombia ( an ally of the USA ) who is collaborating with Israel and both are guns dealers as well is collaborating with Pineira in Chile who is one of the most unpopular president in Latin America. Are those the revolutionaries that he is talking about ?
Do you call mob the conscious world working class ? You must be reading the collected works of Donald Trump
TS can if he wishes construe any message to suit his position and ignore statements made that are contrary.
But his silence about the Palestinian BDS movement and China’s non-support appears to signify that he is willing to sacrifice the Palestinian aspirations to the growth of Chinese political, economic and military power. Much the same as the US, UK, and EU self-interest.
Once again, confirmation of our position that China behaves no differently from any of the other imperialist nations.
The moment Beijing perceived it was losing control of Hong Kong, it asserted its control more firmly. When it was resisted, Beijing imposed harsher restrictions.
Both the 2014 and 2019 protest movements were sparked by Beijing implementing legislation limiting the autonomy of Hong Kong residents. Rather than being initiated by foreign incitement, they were a reaction to moves by Beijing.
Distract all one wishes that it was a plot by the CIA/NED to undermine the Xi and the Chinese government. But the fact is that opinion polls show a majority were in favour of the pro-democracy movement and against the Chinese state’s repression.
There has been very little support for any actual breakaway from China and such had never been a demand of the protest movement.
It is as described, a campaign for democracy. Just as there were when Hong Kong was a British colony, protests have always arisen about the way Hong Kong has been ruled.
But as someone who believes that the deaths of protesters in 1989 at Tiananmen Sq is a hoax, TS is not known for his understanding of history, trusting in Grover Furr for his knowledge of Stalin’s Russia which is the same as relying upon David Irving’s history of the Hitler’s Germany.
“TS can if he wishes construe any message to suit his position and ignore statements made that are contrary.”
Alan continues to tie himself in knots. But he has already revealed his true self.
“But his silence about the Palestinian BDS movement and China’s non-support”
China does not interfere in the internal affairs of foreign countries as is its obligation as a signatory to the United Nations. But Alan, who counts the CIA as one of his friends, cares not for international law. He prefers instead to smear fellow socialists.
Non-interference in states’ internal affairs as a UN Charter principle (Part I)
“he is willing to sacrifice the Palestinian aspirations”
I’ve absolutely no doubt that Alan has smeared his bile over every Palestinian socialist group ever to have existed. To say China does not support the Palestinians is simply untrue as evidenced in the UN where China has singled out Israel for its aggression.
“to the growth of Chinese political, economic and military power. Much the same as the US, UK, and EU self-interest.”
China’s military buildup is a direct response to US containment policy. The US surrounds China with 400 military bases and tens of thousands of troops. A 2016 RAND report concludes that, if not attacked by 2025, the US will be unable to maintain its supremacy over China. Alan would have China roll over and die, its population plunged into Libya style chaos and penury. Alan, champion of the Chinese worker! LOL
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/coming-war-china-john-pilger-17012111
“The moment Beijing perceived it was losing control of Hong Kong, it asserted its control more firmly.”
Alan would prefer fascist gangs ruled the streets setting on fire and brutalising those with whom they disagreed, destroying the cities infrastructure and bringing the economy to a standstill.
“When it was resisted, Beijing imposed harsher restrictions.”
As would every other government on earth.
“Both the 2014 and 2019 protest movements were sparked by Beijing implementing legislation limiting the autonomy of Hong Kong residents.”
The 2019 protests were sparked over a proposed extradition law to bring to justice a man who murdered his pregnant girlfriend in Taiwan. He then packed her body in a suitcase and fled to Hong Kong. The law was designed to bring him to justice. The murderer still walks free in Hong Kong to this day because the Hong Kong government caved to the protesters and withdrew the bill.
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/23/asia/hong-kong-taiwan-murder-intl-hnk/index.html
“Rather than being initiated by foreign incitement, they were a reaction to moves by Beijing.”
Distract all one wishes that it was a plot by the CIA/NED”
Alan, it seems, has a bad memory. He has already acknowledged the role his friends in the CIA played in funding and organising the protests.
“But the fact is that opinion polls show a majority were in favour of the pro-democracy movement and against the Chinese state’s repression.”
Repressing fascists terrorising ones’ population bad. So I guess Hitler should have been allowed to win WW2 then? Alan has many friends.
“There has been very little support for any actual breakaway from China and such had never been a demand of the protest movement.”
Alan keeps saying things that are demonstrably false. Naughty Alan, no supper for you.
https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1193049.shtml
“But as someone who believes that the deaths of protesters in 1989 at Tiananmen Sq is a hoax”
A hoax indeed. Who are you going to believe, me or the Columbia Journalism Review?
“The problem is this: as far as can be determined from the available evidence, no one died that night in Tiananmen Square.”
https://archives.cjr.org/behind_the_news/the_myth_of_tiananmen.php
“TS is not known for his understanding of history, trusting in Grover Furr for his knowledge of Stalin’s Russia”
Fish gotta swim, birds gotta fly, Alan gotta smear. Alan has never read a single word written by Grover Furr. He has no authority to comment on his work.
So the Palestinian struggle is an internal affair of Israel and that is the reason to not support the BDS campaign. And if a Palestinian is throwing rocks, the IDF are entitled to shoot them as in the Zambian case I referred to (proportionate response?)
Does it really matter whether it is a couple of hundred or a couple of thousand protesters were killed in the streets around Tiananmen Sq and not in the actual square? (I still remember the Kent State Massacre and only 4 got killed)
So because the shootings didn’t occur on the Square but in other streets, it means that there was no massacre…duh!
Prof. Ezra Vogel, author of Deng Xiaoping and the Transformation of China
“…By 11:00 pm [on June 3], the troops, still unable to advance [from Muxidi], began firing live weapons directly at the crowds…People’s Liberation Army trucks and armored cars also began charging ahead at full speed, running over anyone who dared to stand in their path…By 1 a.m. on Sunday, June 4, soldiers had begun arriving from every direction. Around the edges of the square, on Chang’an Boulevard and at the Great Hall of the People, soldiers opened fire on civilians who had begun taunting, throwing bricks, and refusing to move…”The CBS reporter often cited as witnessing no bodies in Tinanmen Sq also wrote:
“But there’s no question many people were killed by the army that night around Tiananmen Square, and on the way to it — mostly in the western part of Beijing. Maybe, for some, comfort can be taken in the fact that the government denies that, too.”You fail to acknowledge British diplomatic cables as evidence although those were not used by the media but remained secret.
Similarly, you will dismiss USA diplomatic details also kept secret
https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB16/#12-29
Again it reported that it is the 27th Army being held responsible for the indiscriminate shooting, and the local garrison troops of the 38th Army confronting them.
As for implying the protests in Hong Kong was to stop the extradition of a wife-murderer, the protesters offered very easy resolutions to that without changing the Hong Kong agreement with Mainland. The extradition bill was eventually withdrawn, but too late to placate the protesters.
TruesScotsman STILL doesn’t get it. He never seems to learn anything from this discourse but rambles on with the same old dreary monologue.
Socialists DO NOT take sides in inter capitalist rivalries.
We no more support imperialist capitalist America than we support imperialist capitalist China. A plague on both their houses!
If state-capitalist China is building up its military capacity in response to the military threat of American capitalism we no more support this than we support the US surrounding China with military bases. We don’t pick sides. We oppose ALL of capitalism’s nation-states and the toxic anti-working class ideology of nationalism
TruesScotman is a self-declared nationalist and a fanatical anti-socialist to boot, a stooge and bootlicker of the Red Bourgeoisie and their billionaire-friendly political henchmen in power in Beijing.
Politically, he stands in complete opposition to the interests of the Chinese working class whose interests cannot be served by promoting China’s model of capitalism – or any other model of capitalism – as something to be emulated
For anyone not familiar with Grover Furr here, is a Wikipedia entry.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grover_FurrMatt, i already posted the Wiki link. TS dismisses it as he always does as manipulated entry by persons unknown to discredit Furr.
The fact that Furr has no scholarly support for his “research” and his area of professional expertise is medieval poetry does not dampen TS or any other Stalinist. Those put on trial plus Trotsky were guilty of conspiring against the Soviet state.
They pleaded guilty, didn’t they (although not Trotsky)? That was sufficient proof even for the American ambassador.
Once again, our position is non-partisan, thieves falling out with thieves is our verdict.
Our sympathies go to the workers who resisted the Bolshevik rule.
Ante Ciliga wrote a very good book, ‘the Russian Enigma’
“So the Palestinian struggle is an internal affair of Israel and that is the reason to not support the BDS campaign.”
As far as I am aware, no country on earth supports BDS. It is a consumer and local government led boycott. China acts through the UN as is its duty under international law.
“And if a Palestinian is throwing rocks, the IDF are entitled to shoot them as in the Zambian case I referred to (proportionate response?”
Alan makes a false equivalency. A civilian manager on an isolated mining site is in no way comparable to heavily armed soldiers in armored vehicles.
“Does it really matter whether it is a couple of hundred or a couple of thousand protesters were killed in the streets around Tiananmen Sq and not in the actual square?”
It does indeed. For years Alan has smeared the CCP for mowing down helpless students on Tienanmen Square. He then smeared those who correctly pointed out that there was no massacre on the Square. “There was!” admonished Alan. He was adamant, he swore til blue in his face about conspiracies and denialism. Now, dear reader, Alan admits there was indeed no one killed on the Square. He was lied to yet relished the lie, spread it far and wide.
The lie exposed, Alan cries, “Well what of it?! Thousands, nay millions were killed elsewhere!” Says who? The same liars who told him of the slaughter on the Square? I have already linked to an excellent article that completely upends the western propaganda narrative. Here it is again for your reading pleasure.
“(I still remember the Kent State Massacre and only 4 got killed)”
Remind me then, how many soldiers did the students at Kent State burn alive and string from bridges?
“So because the shootings didn’t occur on the Square but in other streets, it means that there was no massacre…duh!”
““…By 11:00 pm [on June 3], the troops, still unable to advance [from Muxidi], began firing live weapons directly at the crowds”
Alan’s source makes no mention of Molotov cocktails or immolated soldiers. I wonder why?
There was a riot. Gangs of criminals were setting alight entire columns of PLA APCs. Some 400 of them to be precise. They were burning soldiers alive. You do that, you get shot. Would happen anywhere.
“But there’s no question many people were killed by the army that night around Tiananmen Square, and on the way to it — mostly in the western part of Beijing.”
That is true. But very few of those killed were students. Most were rioters, 40 odd were students who joined them, soldiers/police and some unlucky civilians caught in the crossfire.
The first soldiers to make for the Square were completely unarmed. Their way was blocked by barricades and unruly mobs. They were ordered to return armed. The soldiers, pelted with Molotov cocktails and shot at with looted weapons, opened fire. The rest is history.
“Maybe, for some, comfort can be taken in the fact that the government denies that, too.”
The government has admitted to quelling a riot with some 300 resulting deaths. Alan’s source is therefore inaccurate and loses all credibility.
“You fail to acknowledge British diplomatic cables as evidence although those were not used by the media but remained secret.
Similarly, you will dismiss USA diplomatic details also kept secret
https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB16/#12-29”
Alan’s link is full of wild speculation though there is some truth to be gleaned…
“”thousands of civilians stood their ground or swarmed around military vehicles. APCs were set on fire, and demonstrators besieged troops with rocks, bottles, and Molotov cocktails.”
“Again it reported that it is the 27th Army being held responsible for the indiscriminate shooting, and the local garrison troops of the 38th Army confronting them.”
The troops were pacifying armed rioters. Usually ends poorly for the rioters.
“As for implying the protests in Hong Kong was to stop the extradition of a wife-murderer, the protesters offered very easy resolutions to that without changing the Hong Kong agreement with Mainland. The extradition bill was eventually withdrawn, but too late to placate the protesters.”
Alan thinks that the government could have reasoned with the protesters. That is because he has no understanding of the tactics of colour revolution. During colour revolution you only make vague, constantly changing or impossible to meet demands, you never accept concessions.
“The fact that Furr has no scholarly support for his “research””
Does Alan care to support that claim with any evidence?
“and his area of professional expertise is medieval poetry”
And Marx’s was law and philosophy yet you accept his economic and historical analysis do you not? Alan’s hypocrisy is, once more, glaring.
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The 38th Army were not rioters, were they, and they were not the only troops disaffected by the events. The 28th Army could not be relied upon by the government. Nor could the 64th Army’s 190th Division be trusted.
Lieutenant General Xu Qinxian, defied an order from the paramount leader, Deng Xiaoping, to lead his troops to Beijing. General Xu took no part in the subsequent killing of hundreds of protesters around Tiananmen Square,
Note the article refers to hundreds, not thousands killed and it states around the Square, not in it
General Xu was jailed for five years. General He Yanran, commander of the 28th Army was court-martialed, and along with political commissar Zhang Mingchun and chief of staff Qiu Jinkai, were disciplined, demoted and reassigned to other units
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