Hong Kong
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“The only way for a communist society to exist is without dictatorship or totalitarianism. The very definition of communism excludes both dictatorship and totalitarianism: it requires political and economic power to be shared by all citizens.
Though several countries have aspired to be communist, none has achieved it yet. The main reasons for their slow progress are
Immature citizens: communism requires everyone to be responsible for every aspect of government, commerce and civil life. This requires not only great maturity but considerable prosperity: in order to participate fully, everyone needs a good education and plenty of leisure time to devote to running the country and its economy.
China has the most mature population in the world, a history of competent government and its government is dedicated to achieving communism. China experimented with communism under Mao but concluded that they needed much better educated people, greater prosperity and leisure and more experience running a large, complex economy first, before they could advance towards communism.
So they’ve been devoting the last 40 years to education and prosperity and, by June 1, 2021: everyone will have an education, paid employment, more than enough food and clothing, access to medical services, old-age support, a home and a comfortable life.
And they have not lost sight of their eventual goal. In his report to the 19th Party Congress, President Xi mentioned two intermediate dates: 2035 (modern socialist country) and 2049 (mastery of all aspects of life: economic, social and technical).
He also mentioned the next centenary, 2121. By then, the government hopes, the population will be mature, well-educated prosperous and ready to assume responsibility for communist life. It’s a radical vision, as this quote (which Mao loved to repeat) makes clear:
Now to have states, families, and selves is to allow each individual to maintain a sphere of selfishness. This infracts utterly the Universal Principle, gongli, and impedes progress. …
Therefore, not only states should be abolished, so that there would be no more struggle between the strong and the weak; families should also be done away with, so that there would no longer be inequality of love and affection [among men]; and, finally, selfishness itself should be banished, so that goods and services would not be used for private ends. …
The only [true way] is sharing the world in common by all (tienxia weigong) …
To share in common is to treat each and every one alike. There should be no distinction between high and low, no discrepancy between rich and poor, no segregation of human races, no inequality between sexes. …
All should be educated and supported with the common property; none should depend on private possession. … This is the way of the Great Community. [Kang Youwei, Liyun Zhu called Datong Shu].”
More in response to our rabid anti-Marxist-cum-anti-socialist, TrueScotsman
I dispute your contention that China is a capitalist country. It is not. It has a mixed economy but the capitalist class does not pull the strings there
A so-called “mixed economy” IS a capitalist economy. It is simply a mixture of state capitalist and corporatist capitalist ownership and control of the economy. Since you evidently don’t understand the first thing about Marxism let me remind you what Engels had to say on the subject of state ownership:
The modern state, no matter what its form, is essentially a capitalist machine — the state of the capitalists, the ideal personification of the total national capital. The more it proceeds to the taking over of productive forces, the more does it actually become the national capitalist, the more citizens does it exploit. The workers remain wage-workers — proletarians. The capitalist relation is not done away with. It is, rather, brought to a head (Socialism: Utopian and Scientific)
Once again, for the benefit of your political education in which you are, evidently, sorely lacking, the capitalist class DONT NEED TO BE in political control. They don’t need to “pull the strings” in that sense. They can leave that to their political henchman. In China, their political henchmen are pseudo-communist Party. The CPC administers the wages system otherwise known as capitalism in the only way it can be run – in the interests of capital and against the interests of the Chinese working class
I don’t know how often this bears repeating, the Chinese model is one of the most democratic in the world. It is extremely responsive and elections are held up and down the system.
Absolute tosh. You evidently live in some parallel universe in which the real-world facts matter not one wit. Even in terms of the limited concept of bourgeois democracy, the Chinese regime is one of the LEAST democratic. It is a de facto one-party state in which a handful of other minor parties are permitted to exist only by virtue of being under the systematic and wide-ranging control of the CPC itself. There is precious little, if any, press freedom. Marxists in China are routinely subjected to suppression for criticizing the regime. Like all capitalist states, in the Chinese capitalist state, ALL the big decisions are made at the top and imposed downwards, both in the political and economic realms. This is the antithesis of democratic decision-making
“And, no, opposition to this regime is not in the least “racist””
Yeah, it is. You think you know better than the “ignorant yellow hordes”. Well guess what, they’re Marxists but one’s with balls.You’re a pathetic joke. When have I have ever used expressions like “ignorant yellow hordes” or even hinted at such an attitude, eh? I stand four-square with the Chinese workers in their struggles against the parasitic red bourgeoisie and their political henchmen, the so-called CPC. Of course, Chinese workers like British workers hold political views such as nationalism with which I strongly disagree. But that does not mean that I don’t identify and strongly support the interests of these Chinese or British workers in their struggles against their respective sections of the capitalist class.
You are a thoroughly dishonest and unscrupulous individual in the way you go about debating opponents in your usual sneering disdainful manner. No one takes you seriously here, or doubtless anywhere else, you obsequious bootlicker of the Chinese billionaire class and their political henchmen. Crawl back under whatever stone you emerged from in the first place since you seem incapable of constructive and serious debate.
TS “I dispute your contention that China is a capitalist country. It is not. It has a mixed economy but the capitalist class does not pull the strings there”
The top 30 Chinese billionaires have an accumulated wealth of 860 billion dollars. In what world does that $860 billion not pull strings!
TS claims to be a Marxist. Perhaps he can explain how that $860 billion was accumulated other by the extraction of surplus value from the working classes of China and other parts of the world. The very system of economic class rule the so called communist party of China are aiding and abetting in every possible way.
“The top 30 Chinese billionaires have an accumulated wealth of 860 billion dollars. In what world does that $860 billion not pull strings!”
Ask Jack Ma what kind of strings it pulls.
TrueScotsman
Participant
“The top 30 Chinese billionaires have an accumulated wealth of 860 billion dollars. In what world does that $860 billion not pull strings!”Ask Jack Ma what kind of strings it pulls.
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One individual is not a class, a class is a group of individuals, and social classes are defined according to their relationship with the means of production.
Whoever controls and possess the means of production is the one who controls the society ( the economic base and the state ) the working class only possess its labor power which must sell like any commodity to be able to survive ( Basic Marxian theory )
What Drains defined is a social class who have obtained and accumulated capital from the labor of the Chinese working class at the point of production, and it is called surplus value. Marx dedicated one additional volume ( 3 volumes in some publications ) just to that particular concept, known as the Theory of Surplus Value,( Published by Karl Kautsky ) and capital means unpaid labor, or dead labor
in this society, we are surrounded by dead labor because everything has been created by the working class and it has been appropriated by a small group of individuals. In popular terms, it is called robbery or theft.
The capitalist class in all parts of the world ( including China ) are legalized thieves, it is a society based on legal and illegal crime, and the capitalists are parasites because they do not produce anything, it is like cancer ( means crab ) in our society
When the world working class gets to understand that basic concept the capitalist class will last less than a roach in a chicken nest, and all the capitalists including the one in China would be knockdown and they would be eliminated, that is known as class consciousness, and more than 99% of the workers of the world do not have class consciousness ( including you ) that is the reason why they support their own class enemy including the workers in China, North Korea, USA, Cuba and others countries.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1863/theories-surplus-value/. Theories of Surplus Value
Capitalist China is an even more unequal society than capitalist US:
The level of income inequality in China today is very high. According to the official data (which do not provide micro information that can be independently verified), China’s Gini coefficient (a measure of inequality that ranges from 0 to 1) is around 0.47. By comparison, that of the United States is around 0.41
The Red Bourgeosie are doing very nicely thanks to the business-friendly anti-working class regime that administers China. Beijing is now home to more billionaires than any other city in the world
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-56671638
China is a capitalist paradise for the super rich
If Jef Bezzo, Bill Gates, and Donald Trump move to China they would become cadres and members of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of China and claim that they are communist. The right wings in the USA have created a new term known as Corporate socialism or socialism for the rich, it is a clear indication of the confusion that exists on the real conception of socialism
Another so-called socialist country that is breeding a lot of Billionaires is Vietnam, pretty soon they are going to be competing with the Chinese bourgeoisie class
This is what we said about 50 years ago and history has proven that we were on the right track. Since we do not get involved in interclass disputes we were attacked by all kinds of left-wing individuals and groups. Now they are deaf-mute
TS “Immature citizens: communism requires everyone to be responsible for every aspect of government, commerce and civil life. This requires not only great maturity but considerable prosperity: in order to participate fully, everyone needs a good education and plenty of leisure time to devote to running the country and its economy.”
On this, we can all agree. For socialism to successfully operate working people have to understand and desire it and socialism is predicated on relative economic abundance.
This is why 1917 and 1949 failed. The working class was not the most numerous class, did not comprehend nor wish socialism. They supported that famous phrase “peace bread and land”, a slogan first originated by the Social Revolutionaries, not the Bolsheviks who did win the majority in the Constituent Assembly that Lenin dissolved
TS – “So they’ve been devoting the last 40 years to education and prosperity and, by June 1, 2021: everyone will have an education, paid employment, more than enough food and clothing, access to medical services, old-age support, a home and a comfortable life.”
These accomplishments have been developed for far longer elsewhere and merely reflect Welfare Statism of a version of what once was called “state socialism” of Prussia’s Bismarck and quickly re-labelled properly as state-capitalism by Engels.
TS – “And they have not lost sight of their eventual goal. In his report to the 19th Party Congress, President Xi mentioned two intermediate dates: 2035 (modern socialist country) and 2049 (mastery of all aspects of life: economic, social and technical).
He also mentioned the next centenary, 2121. By then, the government hopes, the population will be mature, well-educated prosperous and ready to assume responsibility for communist life. It’s a radical vision”Yet again very little difference from the earlier efforts to differentiate socialism from communism, claiming it is a transitional system. Marx and Engels used the words synonymously and their intermediate society was to be a short-lived political change and swift material advancement via wages being abolished and labour-time vouchers used instead although the latter was a temporary measure, no longer necessary today.
Che Guevara was best known for his ‘Man and Socialism’ to create the appropriate personality for socialist society. But how can half-measures, compromises and concessions of a mixed economy build the character of a socialist when the rewards of capitalist competition and acquisition are still rewarded? Arbitrary wage differentials remain the norm. There can be no oasis of socialism in the ocean of capitalism, as our own critique of cooperatives explains
TS quoting Mao – “The only [true way] is sharing the world in common by all (tienxia weigong) …To share in common is to treat each and every one alike. There should be no distinction between high and low, no discrepancy between rich and poor, no segregation of human races, no inequality between sexes. …All should be educated and supported with the common property; none should depend on private possession.”
In a very early post on this thread, I recalled Stalin’s 1907 ‘Socialism and Anarchism’ article where he too understood socialism (as he called it) to be a class-free society without buying or selling. So we are reminded the Mao also understood what the goal is.
Perhaps Xi does as well. (St Paul in Acts 4-32 also advocated such a society.)
Does Xi’s state-capitalism show the way to achieving it? Or is it another promise that making sacrifices today to enrich either the state directly or the state-approved enterprise, that the Christian heaven on Earth awaits those who follow Xi’s teachings.
As for the denial of Chinese imperialism, in 2006 five Zambians were shot by their Chinese manager while they were protesting against low wages and lax safety standards at the NFCA Chambishi mine. In 2010, a Chinese supervisor at the Collum Coal mine in Southern Province shot thirteen Zambians. The workers at the mine were complaining against the state of safety standards in the mines and their low wages.
http://www.chinoiresie.info/regulating-chinese-investment-in-zambian-mines/And the theft of fish from local communities by large scale industrial trawling.
“It’s estimated that half of China’s total catch from the distant water fleet is from West Africa… three-quarters of the foreign trawlers are Chinese. Chinese vessels, in particular, have been accused of using illegal methods in Sierra Leone waters such as pair trawling. This is when two boats string a net between them and trawl in parallel. Pair trawling is highly effective because it allows boats to cast a wider net. At the same time, it’s incredibly destructive because it rakes in all marine life it encounters. Only a fraction of this catch has a commercial value, with the rest being discarded as bycatch.”
https://www.dw.com/en/sierra-leones-1-month-fishing-ban-achieves-little/a-48531485As I always have said, there is little difference between the policy of China and Xi from so-called conventional capitalist countries.
Alan wrote :
And the theft of fish from local communities by large scale industrial trawling.
“It’s estimated that half of China’s total catch from the distant water fleet is from West Africa… three-quarters of the foreign trawlers are Chinese. Chinese vessels, in particular, have been accused of using illegal methods in Sierra Leone waters such as pair trawling. This is when two boats string a net between them and trawl in parallel. Pair trawling is highly effective because it allows boats to cast a wider net. At the same time, it’s incredibly destructive because it rakes in all marine life it encounters. Only a fraction of this catch has a commercial value, with the rest being discarded as bycatch.”_______________________________________________________________________________
It is the same problem in South America
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-55316326
https://www.seafoodsource.com/news/environment-sustainability/four-south-american-countries-prepare-to-challenge-chinese-fishing-abuses-at-comm9https://www.voanews.com/a/east-asia-pacific_voa-news-china_300-chinese-fishing-ships-south-america-coast-raise-food-security/6196376.htmlThe fishing trawling system is destroying the sea ecology in the Pacific and near the coast of Chile. They are looking for the Chilean Seabass which is one of the most expensive types of fish in the market. The local fishermen are out of jobs and the small fishing industry is going in bankruptcy. They are pirates ships and the coast guard sometimes shoot against them
The BBC reporting on Xi’s return to “socialism”
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58579831The fact that many of Xi’s reforms resemble those of the EU and the US escape the BBC and that the “socialism” is more or less akin to those the Republican Right accuse Biden of implementing with his “Big Government” plans (and some they themselves support such as imposing more control on the Silicon Valley social media hi-tech corporations)
I think we should see Beijing’s Hong Kong policy in the context of the wider imposition of his authority on the Mainland and high profile individuals such as Jack Ma.
And for the moment, he does have at least the acquiescence of the majority of workers. But we also know that when conditions worsen, the Chinese worker is not averse to taking independent industrial action outside the official trade unions.
Che Guevara was best known for his ‘Man and Socialism’ to create the appropriate personality for socialist society. But how can half-measures, compromises and concessions of a mixed economy build the character of a socialist when the rewards of capitalist competition and acquisition are still rewarded? Arbitrary wage differentials remain the norm. There can be no oasis of socialism in the ocean of capitalism, as our own critique of cooperatives explains
____———————————————————————————-Che Guevara was the only one with certain socialist foundations, he spoke about a moneyless society but then he became the head of the Central Bank of Cuba and the Minister of Industry and Commerce. His grandson which was an Anarchist ( I was a member of his forum ) said that Guevara left Cuba because he has ideological contradictions with the leadership
Alan wrote:
TS – “So they’ve been devoting the last 40 years to education and prosperity and, by June 1, 2021: everyone will have an education, paid employment, more than enough food and clothing, access to medical services, old-age support, a home, and a comfortable life.”
These accomplishments have been developed for far longer elsewhere and merely reflect Welfare Statism of a version of what once was called “state socialism” of Prussia’s Bismarck and quickly re-labelled properly as state-capitalism by Engels.
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Several capitalists leaders and dictators have accomplished those social democrats reforms such as Domingo Peron, Cardenas, Rafael L Trujillo, Adolf Hitler, Lyndon B Johnson, Roosevelt, Kadaffi, and others
China investments in mining, oil, electricity, and buying corporations in South America, and influencing some governments in the region. The same thing that was done by the USA capitalists, the same thing with different geographic location
Belt and Road in South America. Chile has been nominated as the backdoor of Chinese capitalism. Talking about Fascist in Chile president Pinera is considered a fascist, therefore, they are making negotiation with a Fascist
http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-04/24/c_138005500.htmChina investment in the Caribbean region in mining, tourism, governmental agreements, loans and arms sales, that includes Puerto Rico which is a possession of the USA
“In 2010, a Chinese supervisor at the Collum Coal mine in Southern Province shot thirteen Zambians. The workers at the mine were complaining against the state of safety standards in the mines and their low wages.”
People in fear for their lives will act to save their lives. Or do you think rocks are harmless, kind of like nerf balls?
“A witness to the incident said miners had thrown rocks before the shooting started.”
To extrapolate from two instances of violence out of hundreds if not thousands of projects that China is therefore just as bad as the Capitalist powers is juvenile in the extreme. But I’d expect nothing less from Alan.
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