Hong Kong
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“He is a contrarian outlier and outright liar.”
A contrarian? Perhaps. Outright liar? Well, them’s fighting words. What, pray tell, have I lied about?
I thought I’d look up the result of that election in Macau. Here’s what Wikipedia says:
“The turnout of the election was only 42.38%, marking the lowest since the 1988 election. The mass disqualification was said to be the reason of residents not voting, but officials claimed the weather and pandemic as main factors instead.The number of invalid and blank ballots broke record, with some writing “trashed election”, “democracy”, name of disqualified candidate Antonio Ng, or foul languages.
Pro-democracy camp won 2 seats only out of 33, whilst the remaining were under the control of pro-government and pro-Beijing parties and politicians as expected.”Only 14 of the 33 seats are directly elected.
The official results were:
Eligible voters 323,907
Valid votes 132,056 96.20
Invalid votes 2,082 1.52
Blank votes 3,141 2.38
Turnout 137,279 42.38So blank and spoiled votes were nearly 4 percent. Turnout was down by 15 percent.
ALB, coming late to this thread, you should be aware that Wikipedia cannot be cited as a reliable source no matter how basic the information is as it is infiltrated by the CIA and other nefarious conspirators.
These figures may come from the Chinese authorities themselves but they are being deliberately spun by Wikipedia to distort the democracy the Beijing government has brought to Macao and Hong Kong.
At least that is the view of our opponent
“ALB, coming late to this thread, you should be aware that Wikipedia cannot be cited as a reliable source no matter how basic the information is”
Pinocchio would be proud of your interpretation of the truth Alan. My original statement was more nuanced than that. But then, if you admitted as much you’d look the fool you are. Since you’ve chosen to retread this tired path let’s do so. Wikipedia is not a reliable source, it even states as much on its own website. So who you gonna believe, me or Wikipedia?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_is_not_a_reliable_source
“it is infiltrated by the CIA and other nefarious conspirators.”
In your fevered dreams you imagine that you are ridiculing me. Instead, you make yourself the laughing stock. Remember, when you point a finger, three are pointed back at you. There is ample evidence supporting my claim, evidence you have made no attempt to refute. Why is that Alan? Is it because you cannot?
Wikipedia formally censors The Grayzone as regime-change advocates monopolize editing
Meet Wikipedia’s Ayn Rand-loving founder and Wikimedia Foundation’s regime-change operative CEO
That election does seem to have been a real one for those candidates and lists that passed the “loyalty” test in so far as there was a choice between 14 competing lists. Nothing like in the rest of China where people don’t have even that limited and truncated choice.
Official Chinese government news agency report on the elections here.
The same type of elections that are made in Cuba
Reading the posts of this troll, I imagine the harassments and insults that the members of the SPGB had to go throw when we did not support the Soviet Union, Leninism, Stalinism, the so-called patriotic war of the soviet union, and the Vietcong
‘Wez, I wouldn’t say TS is representative of any substantial number of leftists. He is a contrarian outlier and outright liar.’
Alan – don’t many Leftists still cling to the illusion that Russia was once ‘socialist’ and that China and Cuba still are?Wez
Tell me about it. You forgot to mention North Korea, Nicaragua, Bolivia, Venezuela, Peru, Argentina, Ecuador, and a bunch of other capitalists countries, guerrillas groups, Arab national socialism, (ex-minister of Sadan Hussein ), and personalities that they call socialists, even more, influential personalities like Noam Chomsky, has fallen into the same trap, and the old hardcore Leninists/Stalinists/Trotsky groups continuing dreaming about the old socialist’s soviet republic, some of them dare to say that Putin is a socialist.
They are good ammunition for the capitalists and right-wingers to be able to load mud on the principles of socialism.
Based on the reactionary concept of anti-imperialism they will support any reactionary and dictator including the president of Syria and some African governments. In their hand’s socialism has been transformed from a theory of liberation into a theory of nationalists, patriotic, social democrats, and guerrillas fighters. It is a real mess
Another distortion that should be mentioned is a trend known as Socialism of the XXI century, which is just a new version of Soviet and Cuban state capitalism, a concept that was created by a professor of the University of Mexico ( UNAM ), and the concept was so distorted by the Venezuelan leaders that he separated himself from them and said that his ideas were distorted, as well the Communist Party of Venezuela walked away from them.
The so-called Unified Socialist Party of Venezuela, has several million members but they only advocated for bourgeois nationalism and bourgeoise patriotism, and nationalization which is also a concept created in England by the British ruling class,( and by the Manchesterists also known as Liberals ) and the left has adopted it as a socialist measure. They support the government of Russia, Syria, North Korea, Cuba, and Iran
Wez
Participant
One good thing about the ‘TrueScotsman’ is that he reminds us just how reactionary many on the Left are and that socialists have no political common ground with them at any level.——————————————-
Are those the fellow travelers? I don’t travel with those fellows
Are those the fellow travelers? I don’t travel with those fellows
MS, I think intellectual honesty permits me, at least, to agree with Trotskyists that those who claim Trotsky was an agent of Hitler should furnish evidence and not assert that the absence of evidence means a plot cannot be excluded because secret conspirators don’t leave evidence.
I may not seek the smoking gun, but a sign of any gus would be helpful
We have to support the concept of critical thinking.
Claims are not evidence. Inferences aren’t evidence. Speculation is not evidence.
If someone makes a claim, the burden of proof is upon him or her.
Trotsky may well have been involved in a conspiracy to overthrow Stalin but was he collaborating with Nazi Germany in doing so? If it is asserted that he was, then the connection must be substantiated.
Accusations of Trotsky being in league with the Nazis is only really convincing if it is already reconciled with someones pre-conceptions.
It is common among conspiracists to connect dots that are unrelated (study ley-lines) or to imagine patterns that simply don’t exist or reach conclusions from coincidences.
As a member of an organisation that has been resolutely opposed to the political ideas of Trotsky, there is no need for us to invent a case against him.
What is the relationship of my message with Leon Trotsky?
Sorry for any ambiguity.
I mere saying that I can sympathise with left-wingers when Stalinists slander Trotsky.
‘I mere saying that I can sympathise with left-wingers when Stalinists slander Trotsky.’
Just out of curiosity Alan, why are you interested in an internecine struggle between Bolsheviks? Is it born of esoteric historical inquiry? Like the internal struggles within the Nazi Party, which were similar, they represent a kind of morbid curiosity but they have no relevance or importance for socialists.
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