Good News: And No Religion, Too
November 2024 › Forums › General discussion › Good News: And No Religion, Too
- This topic has 252 replies, 14 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 2 months ago by ALB.
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December 18, 2022 at 10:45 am #238151Lizzie45Blocked
We may bring about socialism or we may not. But whatever we do or not do, we will do what we do.
The material conditions exist; the consciousness has yet to develop where most are concerned. If it happens, it could. If it doesn’t, it couldn’t.
And you people ask:
https://groups.io/g/spopen/topic/why_our_approach_fails_to/93543234
Seriously?
December 18, 2022 at 12:44 pm #238157ALBKeymasterNo comment.
December 18, 2022 at 12:55 pm #238158Thomas_MoreParticipantLizzie is expressing today’s impatience with deep thought.
December 18, 2022 at 2:05 pm #238161ALBKeymasterMaybe, but wasn’t it impossible that she could not have?
December 18, 2022 at 2:20 pm #238162Thomas_MoreParticipantYes.
When she was typing and then sending the message, no motive intervened to stop her.
- This reply was modified 1 year, 10 months ago by Thomas_More.
December 18, 2022 at 2:30 pm #238165ALBKeymasterWhat is a “motive” and where would it have come from?
December 18, 2022 at 2:55 pm #238166Thomas_MoreParticipantShe read what I had written and that stirred sarcasm in her, which results from her personality and manner of thought. This MOVED (motive, from motion) her in two or three seconds at most to type the message and send it. No thought STRONGER to her than the one which motivated her action intervened.
Are you saying that one can think and act in accordance with a motive which does not impel you to so think and act?
Where do you think decisions come from? Where a thought or feeling, and hence action, comes from? Do they arise of themselves from nothing, or are they the result of matter in motion both without and within us?
Your brain is a material organ, as are your nerves, your sense organs etc. They receive and act accordingly. Thoughts and feelings are initiated by both external and internal factors. You are not a “spirit” independent of sensation. Your thoughts are materially produced. Cause and effect proceeds in a chain, one thought then producing another just as it was produced. Decisions and “choices” are likewise produced on the basis of a multitude of factors, drawn from your past experiences, your past responses, your manner of thinking, which all together make your personality. You cannot think, feel or do independent of this. You do not exist outside of natural law. Nothing is supernatural.
December 18, 2022 at 3:21 pm #238167ALBKeymasterI am just trying to find out why you seem to be saying now, that “motives” are not determined by a previous “chain of causation”.
Of course, if you think they are, then, on your own argument, a motive to counter her post could not have intervened because it was impossible for it to. It didn’t happen, so it couldn’t have happened.
December 18, 2022 at 3:22 pm #238169Thomas_MoreParticipantVideo.
December 18, 2022 at 3:34 pm #238170Thomas_MoreParticipantOf course motives are determind. They spring from causation, like everything else.
We want to instil in others the same motive for socialism that we have.
In us, that motive was produced by thoughts which responded to prior motives, ad infinitum.When people tell you, “There must have been a beginning to the cosmos” you will rightly say that it has neither beginning nor end. Yet, while having no problem with that, you seem unable to really accept it.
Exactly. Lizzie’s post did not motivate (move) me to anger, and there was no stronger motive than that which produced my little quip about “impatience with deep thought.”
I could not do otherwise because I didn’t. If I had done otherwise, I would not have been able to do what I did instead. We think we have the power to choose other than how we choose, but that’s an illusion. We balance, and come down on the side of the weightiest motive moving us.December 18, 2022 at 3:56 pm #238171ALBKeymasterInteresting. With her Austro-Bavarian accent and interest in astrophysics it could even have been Lizzie herself. But it couldn’t have been as it wasn’t.
What I am interested in is not defending a will free from natural causes but in avoiding fatalism. I think that at the end she provides the answer when she says that what people think and do depends on the information they receive. It is our object to provide people with information as why capitalism cannot work in their interest and why only socialism can — even if, of course, socialist ideas have arisen out of the material conditions of capitalism and are, objectively, factual.
Otherwise, we might as well just sit back and see whether or not Socialism will or will not come.
December 18, 2022 at 4:01 pm #238172Lizzie45BlockedHaven’t had so much fun since yesterday. No, I’m not going to say what that was – or I just might if sufficiently motivated to do so. Hilarious!
Psst! Better keep quiet about there being no law in your brave new world. Don’t think that would go down too well with the proletariat.
December 18, 2022 at 5:07 pm #238174Thomas_MoreParticipant“Otherwise, we might as well just sit back and see whether or not Socialism will or will not come.”
I’ve already answered you on that misrepresentation.
If you have no interest in what way the chain of causation proceeds, then by all means just sit back and do sod all. That would be fatalism, but it’s not my position, as already stated.
- This reply was modified 1 year, 10 months ago by Thomas_More.
December 18, 2022 at 5:27 pm #238177Thomas_MoreParticipantLizzie, did you bring your popcorn?
December 18, 2022 at 11:45 pm #238204Lizzie45BlockedLizzie, did you bring your popcorn?
Absolutely not. I’ve just had something far more substantial and satisfying! 🙂
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