Free will an absurdity
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There's lots of other motivations to action besides coercion. One of the classic definitions of "free will" was acting in the absence of coercion.Anyway. Suppose I was to drop the word "free-will" and say "agency" instead, what would you say then? Would you try to deny it exists?
No, as I don't deny will.I deny that will is independent of pressure from within or without, even if the pressure is pleasurable.For instance, defiance, even to martyrdom, is itself a motive.
My sentiments in a nutshell, had I the wit to express them so. Notwithstanding the Trotskyite social-workers, who like to maintain that it's so-called social deprivation which leads to more unemployed black youths than Tory MPs becoming drug dealers, I maintain an unfashionable belief in free will. I make no apology for that. I'm sorry, but there it is.I see BAE Systems are down ten bob.
There is no willing without pressure/coercion moving the will. That is the crux of it: materialism vs idealism.
Your sentiments exactly? But you ve just contradicted yourself.
Agency is by whom or what an action is performed. The will is an agent, but only by being compelled by a host of agencies determining it in an individual.
Anyway, I m sick of having to defend my materialism here.Why don't you define, in your own words, what you mean, all of you, by free will?And no one has answered, how do you explain the dichotomy between THE WESTERN SOCIALIST and other comrades on one side, and you on the other over this term?
I never get any support on forums from comrades who agree with me. I am left to be bruised and battered all by myself.I think it's "a laugh" for a lot of them.
John Oswald wrote:And no one has answered, how do you explain the dichotomy between THE WESTERN SOCIALIST and other comrades on one side, and you on the other over this term?Perhaps we can't answer. We don't have a choice, not our fault. Or are you suggesting we do have a choice?
A man sees a woman he finds incredibly lovely. He wasn't expecting to. The season has filled him with a vibrancy that has made him susceptible. Fragrances, dependent on the season, have brought back to him feelings associated in his past with love. All of these act upon his will.1) He resolves as a result of these impulses, to introduce himself to the woman.2) Another man, with exactly the same feelings, but inured to repression of them, instead of joy feels pain, and is resolved not to pursue the matter. Both arrive at contrary determinations, but both are impelled by a motive to take one or the other. Those who know them could even predict which way they would lean.
You have a choice to make and you will BE MOVED one way or the other.
From THE WESTERN SOCIALIST, no. 3, 1972. Author: W.C. Currey, reprint of the classic, "Free Will."(See also my own piece, "Do We Have Free Will?" in THE WORLD SOCIALIST REVIEW.)Editor of WS on Currey's piece:"This essay was originally published in THE WESTERN SOCIALIST over thirty years ago; it holds up as a classic and generally conforms with scientific views today."Select quotes:"It is claimed by some persons that man has the free and absolute choice in his conduct between several possible alternatives; that there resides within him a mentor that voluntarily decides, without necessity or compulsion, internal or external, the precise course of action to pursue."That word "possible" deserves a little attention. Whatever one decides on, and does, is thereby proved possible. Whatever one does not do, for that particular occasion, is manifestly impossible. Time being what it is, it should be clear on this basis alone, that whatever one does is the only conceivable "possible". But before an action takes place, it seems to us that there is a variety of possibilities. Why does a man select a particular one? Free will advocates say because he voluntarily chooses to do so."…Now, all living things exercise a certain range of movement and apparent choice of response. Animalcules react to light, food, temperature changes, etc. – they avoid the noxious and seek the beneficial. Yet, does anyone seriously contend that these lowly (not a word I would have used – A.) creatures exhibit "free will"? The hardiest defender of the dogma will acknowledge that what happens in such instances is determined solely by stimuli acting on the nervous and physiological mechanism of the organism. The higher (again, not a word of my choosing – A.) animals on an ascending scale exhibit a progressively wider range of activity. Yet, in spite of this, their responses can be predicted and controlled. Have these animals "free will"? To ask the question is to dismiss it."Now, every one of us starts on his human career as a microscopic blob of protoplasm – a single cell – a very lowly animal indeed. Even before union, the male part of us at least is motile. Has a spermatozoon the godly gift of free will? The developing embryo adds new responses daily; the fetus kicks, swallows, sucks its fists. It is not yet even conscious. Is there any evidence of free will here? The newborn baby cries at pain and discomfort, imbibes nourishment, etc. Stimuli excite its nervous mechanism and it gives the appropriate response. The growing child multiplies its range of movements infinitely; but, from conception to cremation, the human animal continues to adjust itself to the compulsions acting on it from within and without. Where, when, on this journey from ovum to man, does the organism cease to be guided by its physical equipment and environment and switch over to indeterminate free will? " But a man has self-consciousness. Each of us can look inside himself and see what is going on. We are aware of endless debates, resolutions, orders and inhibitions – a constant stream of mental processes. We get a subjective view of the whole process, and because we consciously decide a certain way it seems that we voluntarily choose that way. "
"We always feel in spite of ourselves and never because we want to.""Every effect has its cause, which can be retraced from cause to cause into the abyss of eternity … all events are produced by one another. …"
John Oswald wrote:I never get any support on forums from comrades who agree with me. I am left to be bruised and battered all by myself.I think it's "a laugh" for a lot of them.Why are you getting upset by the content of peoples wills towards you?They didn't will them you know!This kind of thing shows why even those who claim not to believe in free will go on behaving as though they do. We actually have no choice, this is what human animals do.
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