Fellow travellers?

[ALB]

Yes of course but they were eventually found out and proved from official US government documents (and besides were carried out by the government not by some conspiratorial group). That's the point I was making. Such documents concerning a hypothetical 9/11 inside job, fake moon landings and suppression of evidence for alien landings have not been found and won't be because they won't exist. How else could you prove them except from government documents?

[alanjjohnstone]

Do you ever take time out to read what people say.  Post #11“I definitely think high-lighting various conspiracy theories (from Lockerbie to HIV doesn’t cause AIDS and, of course, 9/11) to attack capitalism as a system of deceit is on the wrong track.  There are plenty of lies that are indisputable out there to draw attention to this.” You now ably provided several examples that could have been used and i am sure it can easily be added to and expanded. Off the top of my head one of the biggest in the UK being the 1956 Suez Canal invasion. And Porter Down carried out numerous experiments on military who i doubt were able to give knowing consent. We had soldiers deliberately positioned within the effects of atomic bomb blasts in nuclear weapon testing in Australia.    Post#22 “I no longer attempt to persuade or convince people they are wrong, since experience has taught me it is a waste of time. Urban myths such as the Magic Bullet and the JFK movie are too deeply imbedded – i now simply say you are wrong, you are mistaken based on factual errors. YOU prove to me i am wrong and that there was a conspiracy and LHO didn’t do it, or did so with the help of others.” So I await YOUR proof of a conspiracy. Ed’s attempts, i’m afraid failed to reach the standard required  Post#24“Indeed, LHO motives are speculative”  However, numerous facts about the case are not up for debate but are a matter of public record and a great number of claims of supposed evidence of a conspiracy can be refuted….but another lesson, i have learned…the goal-posts are always moving once something supposedly considered crucial to support a conspiracy is shown to be wrong.   I have said in a previous post, conspiracy theories are not some innocent idle pub chat but has led to hundreds of thousands of actual deaths…and if some conspiracies were to be accepted, it would lead to millions more of deaths.  A mind that is too open lets the brains spill out.    

[DJP]

FWIW my old philosophy tutor has an interested in conspiracy theories and unwarranted conspiracy theories.Here's an (unfinished) paper by him on the subject:http://www.uea.ac.uk/~j097/CONSP01.htm

[jondwhite]

David Aaronovitch (ex-tankie in the CPGB) writes about conspiracies a lot – he was also on the Daily Politics recently when Alex Jones blew up at Andrew NeilThere is a podcast interview herehttp://www.littleatoms.com/aaronovitch.htm

[ALB]

DJP wrote:

FWIW my old philosophy tutor has an interested in conspiracy theories and unwarranted conspiracy theories.Here's an (unfinished) paper by him on the subject:http://www.uea.ac.uk/~j097/CONSP01.htm

I read the whole 40-page paper last night and it's excellent. I trust the others taking part in the discussion here on conspiracy theories will too. It's surely the last word on this digression here.I liked two of his points in particular: (1) that when the conspiracy theorist starts to claim that the documentary and forensic evidence has been faked that's the end of any possible meaningful discussion with them, and (2) that in most cases the alleged conspirators would have been able to achieve the aim attributed to them by easier and less risky methods.I'm not a JFKennedy Assassination Theory buff but I am a Currency Crank one and noticed some of the leaflets distributed by currency cranks during the Occupy St Pauls in 2011 tried to argue that one of the reasons he was assassinated was that he wanted to transfer the power to issue the US currency from the Federal Reserve (central bank) to the Treasury (the government), as many US (and British) currency cranks advocate. See, for instance,http://www.john-f-kennedy.net/thefederalreserve.htmand the refutation here:http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/weberman/jfk.htm  Clearly you can fashion your own Kennedy Assasination Conspiracy Theory to fit in with anything, even something which nobody considered an issue at the time. Presumably you can do this with other events too..

[alanjjohnstone]

The article is excellent in debunking the Kennedy assassination conspiracy theory, although i was under the impression that Umbrella Man was drawing attention to the Munich appeasement of Chamberlain. Indeed it is puzzling why those who purportedly carry out a conspiracy seek the most complicated and convoluted methods. Easier to get rid of Kennedy in the next election particularly his showings in opinion polls were at a low. If his philandering and adultrous ways were exposed then indeed he would have lost some of his Catholic support base ( yes, there was a conspiracy, by the media in its refusal to report Kennedy's private life). It was a lot easier to use the ballot than the bullet to replace him. Likewise 9/11…a few simple but deadly car bombs would have served the same political purpose as hi-jacking aircraft and flying them into buildings that had been wired to explode to collapse and would have been a lot easier to organise and involve a lot less participants…which is the general rule of a successful conspiracy…the less in the know , the better chance it remains secret.  Gerald Posner's "Case Closed, which is cited in the article , is excellent and an attempt to discredit it online as flawed with a 100 errors is effectively countered when each error is examined , some being typos and total irrelevancies.  Those like Oliver Stone who glorified a vindictive liar such as Garrison as some sort of searcher of truth  whose frame-up  led to the ruin of an innocent man mainly because he was a leading New Orleans gay should hang their head in shame.  Factoid upon degrees of separation  …Jack Ruby was a very distant relation of the Bouviers – Jackie Kennedy…Was it all just a way of getting rid of a cheating husband and marry Onassis who she had just spent a vacation cruising with ? Did  Aristotle hire the French hitmen who have been accused of carrying out the assassination? Ys Adam, it is so easy to fashion your own conspiracy , as you say. And talking about Ruby just take the time-line and it is clear that it is a crime of opportunity…he went to the Western Union to wire money to a dancer…what if there was a line he had to stand in ?…he got stopped at a red traffic-light if it had been green he would have seen a policeman at the ramp to police station who a few moments later left…if the post office investigator…(yes SteveC , the American version of the IB even interviewed LHO on the post-box) …hadn't had some questions …if LHO hadn't decided he wanted to change the sweater he had on and return to put on a new one …LHO would have been long gone before Ruby's arrival…and, of course,  every Mob hitman takes his pet dog on the job. 

[ALB]

By co-incidence, more amusing stuff from Ministry of Defence files released yesterday:http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jun/21/last-release-mod-ufo-filesThe MoD seems to have been more patient than I would have been.

[Anonymous]

First Socialism hijacked by lefties ,now Free Access..Conspiracy anyone?Free Access Movement (Movimento Passe Livre) – which has been campaigning for better public transport – earlier pledged to take to the streets "to celebrate" the reversal of a public-transport fare increase.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-22992410

[Ed]

Alan, I find your posts in this thread most uncomradely. First you imply by association that anyone who disagrees with your analysis on the Kennedy assassination is the same as someone who denies the link between HIV and AIDS. Secondly I find your smarmy condescension quite nauseating and therefore have made no attempt to nor will debate you on this matter. Thirdly the fervent vigour with which you have attacked me indicates that you are just as obssesed with the Kennedy assassination as those of the websites you used to frequent. Get a grip comrade and climb down off your high horse.

[Ed]

ALB wrote:

Ed wrote:

Well of course it's standard for the bourgouisie to rig elections, encourage coup d'etats, assasinate or imprison political opponents. That's not a secret, or a secret state though that's one and the same state apparatus which must be captured. So not really sure what you mean by a secret state or how it would effect an overwhelming socialist majority?

I don't think it's true that in countries like Britain and the USA  elections are rigged by "the bourgeoisie". I've been to many election counts and can't see how "the bourgeoisie" could do this. To do it, they would have to have a  vast secret organisation involving polling clerks, returning officers, some candidates, etc (so vast in fact that it would be impossible to keep it secret). Theories that 9/11 was an inside job or that flying saucers exist but that the government has covered this up also presuppose a secret organisation.Some of our critics argue that there is no point in trying to win control of parliament because "parliament does not control the government and that the apparent government is not the real government". We deal with this argument in the section headed "Conspiracy" in our pamphlet What's Wrong With Using Parliament?:

Quote:

But is the government that is chosen by parliament the real government or is this some shadowy committee of capitalists? There is not the slightest evidence for the existence of such a parallel government. The idea that it exists is pure conspiracy theory. If it did exist, it is difficult to see how its existence could be kept secret. The ministers of the government we can all see and know about would mention it in their memoirs. None ever has. There are other problems with this conspiracy theory. How would the members of this supposed secret committee of capitalist puppet-masters be chosen? What mechanisms would they have to settle policy differences between different capitalist groups (since the capitalist class is not a monolith with a single obvious common interest)? There certainly exist capitalist pressure groups, such as the European Round Table of Industrialists, but these endeavour to influence governments, rather than themselves being a kind of power behind the throne. The whole theory is absurd. The fact is that the government is the government we see

The ironic thing is that the USA, the land of conspiracy theories, probably has one of the most open governments (relatively speaking) in the world.

COINTELPROOperation GladioFor the record I said it was not beneath the bourgouisie to rig elections, not saying that they do in the UK. But they well might if we were an actual threat.

[alanjjohnstone]

I can't help but  express my very righteous anger at conspiracists who have supported and permitted genocidal policies. The links provided show that most support multiple theories and giving credence to one offers succour for the others too so , yes , i am rather serious about Kennedy assassination as it is often the ABC  jumping off spot for many other types plus it revises history…if only he had not been killed by the military-industrial complex (itself a phrase by Eisenhower taken out of context and made into a conspiracy), the Vietnam war wouldn't have never have happened. ….and you unfairly suffered the back-lash  ….my apologies for that…Condescending…high horse….i am afraid i plead guilty …for someone who initially claimed to have read about the assassination in your post,  Ed, your points about the assassination are perhaps the easiest to demonstrate as factually wrong, not one of  interpretation, or, of opinion,  but verifiably wrong as a fact. Was LHO capable of the shot…yes…his marine records show he was…from that distance and angle and in the accepted time permitted for 3 shots with that model of rifle …yes…it has been re-enacted , not as a lucky fluke,  but like all scientific proof…confirmed by replication…. numerous times…To support a conspiracy it requires other conspiracies to explain the attempted shooting of Walker…the murder of policeman, Tippet…and countless others from the tampering with the evidence to the deaths of those linked , no matter how tenuously, to the supposed conspiracy…always strange that the authors who expose these are never ever killed themselves. As an aside, I recently learned the original source of describing the rifle as "humane" because of its supposed inaccuracy…a 1943 speech by Mussolini when to explain another military failure he placed the cause on the equipment…what do they say about a bad work-man blaming his tools. I am minded also of reading a book on debunking the Bermuda Triangle…(how that conspiracy has faded in recent years in popularity)…but the point was that most of the books on the subject took for granted the claims of the others …and did not go to sources. "Blue skies and calm seas"  when checked with the actual met reports turned out to be stormy weather, coast-guard reports found those "experienced sea-fairers"  to be judged as "weekend sailors" . Oh and i do support the existence of certain conspiracies…Stalin's show-trials were one, were they not ?…Yet  we had very reasonable, intelligent sophisticated and self-styled objective observers, normally at the forefront of justice, totally committed to the truth of their guilt as Trotskyite saboteurs. Adam, i once worked a few years in air traffic control and would read the UFO reports…some were very convincing…reports from experienced pilots who knew all the usual causes for certain phenonomen…..others were, ummm…. less so…"after a night in the pub i was making my way home and i looked up and saw lights in the sky (hic)…"…or even from the police who made reports…."as a very non-eventful tedious boring night-shift drew to a close and as i fought to keep my eyes open …(yawn)…i saw these strange things in the sky …" Of all the reports i read,  the commonality was this ….it was an UNIDENTIFIED flying OBJECT..no-body claimed to ever seen an actual space-ship…just something they personally couldn't explain. Anyways ….this thread is an example of how one can be diverted down side-tracks…it did originate on those outside the WSM that share many but not all our positions and how do we relate and co-operate with them. I may be showing an "uncomradely" tendency towards members of our own party on this thread, as Ed says, but i counsel in our relations with "fellow travellers" we should be more comradely. 

[ALB]

alanjjohnstone wrote:

Of all the reports i read,  the commonality was this ….it was an UNIDENTIFIED flying OBJECT..no-body claimed to ever seen an actual space-ship…just something they personally couldn't explain.

I think the words you are looking for are Unidentified Aerial Phenomena since the word "object" begs the question.I don't think this discussion is a diversion as the association of a political organisation or its members with unwarranted conspiracy theories about 9/11, Kennedy's assassination, etc discredits that organisation.

[ALB]

Ed wrote:

For the record I said it was not beneath the bourgouisie to rig elections, not saying that they do in the UK. But they well might if we were an actual threat.

I know members speculate about this sort of thing but, surely, when "we", i.e the working class movement for socialism, become a real force and a threat to capitalist rule, the balance of forces will have shifted so much in our favour that they won't be able to do this. It also assumes that the capitalist class will be united in their reaction to a growing socialist movement, but they are more likely to be split with one section wanting to trying to buy off the revolution with social reforms rather than resort to repression. Also, the personnel who actually run elections, mainly local government workers, are members of the working class and many of them will be influenced by socialist ideas. So I don't see the capitalist class getting away with it, at least not in this country.

[J Surman]

If I may revert to what the thread began with as I've just seen this (below) from New Democracy World's 'daily digest'  about the ongoing situaution in Brazil.newdemocracyworld@simplelists.comIt's an answer to an e-mail question about what could be done in Brazil right now and parallels broadly what we would say individually, don't you think?Not having detailed info, we can only make generalizations, but I feel surewe would do much as we do now; that is, encourage people to make democraticrevolution the open and conscious goal of their struggle.Within the goal of revolution , the tactics would be:1) Spread the struggle to all elements of the working classes, farmers andagricultural workers, etc.. Extend the struggle to the workplace, with massstrikes, occupations, takeovers of all production, etc..2) Win the military to the Revolution. Encourage soldiers' councils, etc.3) Promote everywhere democratic discussion of a new society . What shouldbe its goals and direction, how should real democracy be organized?Within this broad framework, I think New Democracy would want to show thatthe idea of a new world is an extension of the best values that ordinarypeople already exercise in their lives . Revolution is not a step intounknown territory. It is a step into the best of what working peoplealready do now, and extending it to the whole of society. Ordinary peopleorganized in democratic discussion–not political or intellectualelites–are the best judges of the possibilities and organization of thenew world.I assume that all or many of these things are being done now in Brazil;they are the things that people have always done when they become moreconfident and conscious of their own power.Of course there will be many elements of the status quo that will seek tosidetrack and destroy the Revolution: the Left, the Right, the U.S., allantidemocratic forces. So New Democracy would have an additional task. Inaddition to promoting positive ideas about people, we would want to:4) Subject all anti-democratic ideas and forces to exposure and defeat.These are my thoughts. I'd be interested to hear others'.Dave Stratman

[ALB]

I think the link you meant to give is this, Janet:http://www.newdemocracyworld.org/revolution/brazil.htmlWhile I'm writing, I'd just add re the point Ed raised about rigging elections that the reaction of the Brazil government in offering reforms to try to allay the discontent suggests that this is the more likely scenario that the last capitalist government will follow in the event of powerful and growing socialist movement.

[Author]

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