Dire straits
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Hey guys,
I’m writing this because I want to get a feel for how the party feels in regards to the direction it’s going.
Since the general election I can’t shake the feeling that we have been trying the same thing over and over again with hope that the results will change and they never do!
I feel the results from brand new leninist parties like Galloway’s Workers party demonstrably show we are going about this completely the wrong way.
Now I’m under no illusion, I never expected us to win any elections, but anyone who knows anything about history knows that it’s the parties on the fringe who will take power once crisis hits the system.
Right now, (and from looking back at British electoral history), if an economic collapse happened tomorrow, the two main parties that would decide the future would be either the fascists or the leninists, this is true for every western nation.
We have never even come close to the numbers they have, not in 2010 during the recession, not in 2021 during the covid crisis and none before or after that.
We are just not getting through to the workers.
Therefore I want to broadly outline my main proposals for the party below in 3 points I consider desperately urgent for updating our strategy.
This will get us more members and hopefully a chance at winning the struggle if the time ever comes that the workers are ready to abolish capitalism:
1. Get active – call for a general strike for a Gaza ceasefire, fund buses for protests, hold banners with slogans, join protests/pickets/strikes with workers, even if it is for things like better wages, this is not us becoming reformists, but we can join and support while always reminding the workers whatever they give us here, they will take somewhere else. (In regards to Gaza, I am happy to print out leaflets and hand them out all over the country as much as possible, a million man strike would very likely change government policy, the businesses would be losing money, they’d quickly apply pressure on government for us, this would show the people their power, stop the genocide and gain us much needed visibility).
2. Get practical – Remove the bit about abolishing money from the site or at least have a hyperlink on it explaining (in video format would be best) how it might work (include labour vouchers being used as possible alternatives and why we are against money in practical examples).
This is such a big thing whenever I talk to people, they just cannot conceive of abolishing money.
I have multiple conversations, time after time and every single time they check the website that’s the bit they come back to me with, that’s the bit they’re like “no mate sorry, that’s just insane!”.
There are multiple ways Labour vouchers could work, multiple pricing systems, Catalonia and others show it can work, when I mention these to people they are a lot more receptive and remember, it doesn’t have to be permanent.3. Get helpful – Have a tab on the website for mutual aid.
I.e for sharing/donating things, for people seeking advice, like a mix of the citizens advice bureau and a charity.
Party members can dedicate their free time to it whenever possible.
This one isn’t as crucial but I feel it would really help us show people we mean business.
That we do actually care and are not some crackpot ideologues hiding behind Capital.
I can also help with this on the site.This would help us gain that visibility, the podcast and other strategies we have talked about are good but they will not get us the public, we must remember the capitalists control every facet of the media, for every pound we spend on getting our site, videos, ect recommended they spend a hundred.
I’m a socialist never visit fascist things, and yet on my reddit, YouTube, Facebook and X I STILL get constant recommendations/adverts for trump, andrew tate and the like.
That’s why I deleted those apps, we should create a culture that is aware of these subliminal tactics.
They even have ai bots that are impossible to tell apart from a real person now which comment and downvote any socialist talking point.
Online is not a battle we are going going to win.
We need to get personal, we need to get to the people, that is our only chance.
This is not a call for reform, it’s a call to action.
Please do let me know if this is something we’re willing to do.
If not I don’t see much use in belonging to this party anymore unfortunately.
YFS
Ruben
Show me where I advocated for a minority revolution?
In regards to the other two points I believe I made my reasoning quite clear for supporting such actions.
<are you sure you’re a member of the SPGB>
Not for much longer if this is the type of response I’m going to get…
I’m just a hanger rounder not a member..
The talk about an economic collapse and finge parties taking power looked like an approval of minority revolution to me..
But this is all stuff you’d have to raise through your branch rather than post here with the vague hope of it being actioned. I don’t fancy your chances though, it all goes against long established, and generally sound, positions.
Actually, we don’t actually say “abolish money” (and I’m fairly certain we don’t say this anywhere on our website) as this recent discussion here shows:
It’s something people interpret us as standing for. But we are always careful to say is that we want to establish the common ownership of productive resources so allowing production to directly satisfying people’s needs — and that, as a consequence of this, money will become redundant.
If resources are owned in common then so will what they are used to produce. The question that then arises is how to distribute what has been produced, not how to sell it.
Hey DJP
<But this is all stuff you’d have to raise through your branch rather than post here with the vague hope of it being actioned.>Hmmmm good point, I really just wanted to get a feel for how the party feels in general, I did email also tbf.
Hey ALB.
We actually do in our about https://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/who-we-are/
“socialism will be a moneyless” and “SPGB (WSM) advocate…
Abolishing money, markets and banks”.Well, yes, of course socialism will be a society in which there will be no money (because it won’t be needed) and so be “a moneyless society”. I don’t see anything wrong in saying that any more than saying it will be a classless society. It doesn’t even rule out using “vouchers” under certain temporary circumstances, as in the very early days or after some disaster.
It will equally obviously be a society without markets and banks as well. These are all features of an exchange economy and exchange, as it is a transaction between separate owners, implies private ownership.
For some people, imagining how the production and distribution of useful things and services could be organised without using money can be difficult when they first hear about this. But it should be possible to explain to them that this is a consequence of the common ownership of resources and production directly to meet people’s needs, ie socialism.
I still say it is better to talk about the “disappearance” of money, etc rather than their “abolition”. The word “abolition” could suggest (even if it doesn’t have to) some political decree to ban them, whereas in fact they will disappear as a consequence of there being common ownership of resources and products. In any event, we don’t envisage their disappearance/abolition while retaining private ownership of resources.
I don’t think most of those who advocate using a voucher system instead of a circulating means of exchange also envisage markets and banks continuing, do they?
Regarding your other idea — of a general strike in Britain to stop the bombing of civilians in Gaza — obviously socialists want that to stop too, immediately. In fact we want the whole war to stop. But in practice that is just a declaration of principle, important though it is to state where you stand.
Unfortunately, unless those who directly control the Israeli killing machine decide to do so unilaterally, only the US government could bring effective pressure on the Israeli government to do this.
So a general strike in Britain, even if it could be organised, would have no effect. Any general strike would have to be in the US but the chances of that are less than zero.
To have even the slightest chance of succeeding, a general strike (any general strike) would have to have overwhelming popular support. But in both the US and Britain voters have just elected pro-Israel governments. And as has been pointed out many times, if people won’t vote for something they are unlikely to strike for it.
So a huge effort would have to be put in to get people to change their mind. But the time and energy involved would be more effectively used to get people to realise that wars are a product of the competitive struggle for profits over sources of raw materials, trade routes, markets and investment outlets and that, therefore, the only way to stop wars breaking out is to replace capitalism by socialism. Which of course is what we are doing all the time.
Hi Ruben, I admire your enthusiasm! I don’t agree with all your suggestions, but I do agree with your suggestion of a hyperlink to a video which explains our position on abolishing money. It’s fundamental to our position but difficult to explain easily, because you have to go into a somewhat long-winded explanation of the nature of capitalism. It would be good to have a video explaining that money is a detrimental way of measuring value. We just need people to produce that video!
Paula (not moderating)Hey guys
ALB your description of how money would become superfluous is (ironically) bang on the money 🙂
However people really do find it hard to grasp, and as we are both aware that this will not be done by decree, we should sincerely remove the “we are for abolishing”, it just does more harm than good making people envision it as a decree (even after we explain it’s not).
Hey Paula,
Thank you, I feel maybe I should make a video showing how people might live and then we could hyperlink it to the bit about what socialism is and what we are for (I’d just really like to show people that we might go through a period of using money/labour vouchers even after a SPGB victory.
That money will be done away with as a natural process, not forced).ALB in regards to Palestine the truth is most Muslims/liberals would back it.
I talk to people in Palestine strikes, leafleters, organisers and they really, really care.Furthermore my point is that it would also generate incredible visibility for the party.
I am quite certain that Galloway’s defense of Palestine is the core reason why his party got 200’000 votes!
On the back of that they have gained many, many members.
This is what we need to be doing!
Things that get us noticed!
For example after Palestine, I personally don’t mind standing outside of an Apple store holding up a sign with the SPGB logo saying “Apple uses slave labour”, this gets attention, this gets people talking, this generates interest.
YFS
Ruben
Manipulative vote chasing is not what the SPGB should be doing. And that’s not how socialism can be reached. You can only get socialism by building a mass of people who understand what it is and are willing to put it into action.
Galloway is a opportunist hack.
Ironically, we’d get more publicity (and get people thinking more) if we stood outside a bank with a placard saying “Who Need Money?”
Or outside a station with one saying “Why isn’t public transport free?”
Or something like that which is directly relevant to the case for socialism.
If it wasn’t for the fact Trotskyists deny the existence of the SPGB, I would say this was a SWP wind-up.
I’m not sure if it’s an urban myth but wasn’t the slogan for one year’s election campaign something like “Don’t vote for us. (Unless you understand what socialism is and are willing to help put it into practice)”
This stands out from those that make promises they can’t deliver and gets people to think.
Actually it is not entirely a myth. Here’s what our candidate for a municipal election in Glasgow in May 1962 stated in his election address:
“As a candidate for the Socialist Party of Great Britain, I do not beg for your vote on any reform. If, in fact, you want some reform of the present social system, then your vote is not for the Socialist Party of Great Britain.”
And went on:
“What I stress again and again, is that in order to bring about Socialism the majority must understand it. If you understand and desire Socialism, if you are aware that Capitalism can never operate for the benefit of the working class, then you will be aware that a vote for any of our opponents is a vote for the retention of Capitalism and a vote for the Socialist Party of Great Britain candidate is a vote registering your protest against Capitalism, a vote for Socialism—the new world.”
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