Debate: Did Lenin Distort Marx?

[Anonymous]

The concept of the vanguard party  and elitism  belongs to  Ferdinand  La Salle  Bakunin was also a proto Leninist and despite his opposition toward Marx he translated the  comunist manifest into the Russian language  Both Marx and Engels opposed elitism and the concept of leadership 

[LBird]

robbo203 wrote:

There is, of course, also this famous circular of 1879 to the German Party signed by both Marx AND Engels (which moreover was actually written by Engels himself) which gives the lie  to LBird's, as usual, groundless speculations.   Leninist vanguardism had its orgins in part in the emergent trend towards vanguardism and elitism within the broader Social Democratic movement as a whole , to which trend both Marx AND Engels defiantly expressed their uncompromising opposition.

mcolome1 wrote:

Both Marx and Engels opposed elitism and the concept of leadership 

One day, lads, you're going to have to read what I write, rather than arguing with a myth of your own making.

[LBird]

Perhaps this link will provide some food for thought, for those disposed to have a chew.Between Marx, Marxism, and Marxisms – ways of reading Marx’s theory – Ingo Elbehttp://libcom.org/library/between-marx-marxism-marxisms-%E2%80%93-ways-reading-marx%E2%80%99s-theory-ingo-elbe

[Anonymous]

LBird wrote:

One day, lads, you're going to have to read what I write, rather than arguing with a myth of your own making.

Sexist as well as elitist, eh? 

[Young Master Smeet]

LBird wrote:

 'Materialism' is the perfect ideology for elitists, like Lenin, because it posits a 'special consciousness', not available to all and so not democratic, by which the elite 'know matter'. 

Can I just quietly point out you have never substantiated this claim.

[LBird]

Young Master Smeet wrote:

LBird wrote:

 'Materialism' is the perfect ideology for elitists, like Lenin, because it posits a 'special consciousness', not available to all and so not democratic, by which the elite 'know matter'. 

Can I just quietly point out you have never substantiated this claim.

There are none so blind as those who will not see!If you can tell me what you haven't understood about what I've 'never substantiated', I'll try again (mod permitting).But… if you're going to stick to your (unacknowledged?) 'materialism', then these well-established 'claims' (since the late 19th century) will remain 'unsubstantiated-for-materialists'.Have you read the LibCom article link? At least it'll give you a rest and change from what I'm writing, and show that this isn't just all 'my' theory.

[robbo203]

LBird wrote:

robbo203 wrote:

There is, of course, also this famous circular of 1879 to the German Party signed by both Marx AND Engels (which moreover was actually written by Engels himself) which gives the lie  to LBird's, as usual, groundless speculations.   Leninist vanguardism had its orgins in part in the emergent trend towards vanguardism and elitism within the broader Social Democratic movement as a whole , to which trend both Marx AND Engels defiantly expressed their uncompromising opposition.

mcolome1 wrote:

Both Marx and Engels opposed elitism and the concept of leadership 

One day, lads, you're going to have to read what I write, rather than arguing with a myth of your own making.

 And why should we attach any importance to what you write? After all it is not as if you are really interested in any kind of serious debate given your point blank refusal to answer questions put to you, time after time. So I take whatever you say with a pinch of salt frankly Sorry but I attach rather more importance to what Engels wrote than what you write and if Engels says quite candidly that  he is opposed to elitism and vanguardism – which is exactly what he did – then I have good grounds for thinking that was indeed his position.  Or are you adopting the elitist standpoint of declaring you know better what Engels thought than Engels.    

[LBird]

robbo203 wrote:

  Or are you adopting the elitist standpoint of declaring you know better what Engels thought than Engels.    

Of course we 'know better what Engels thought than Engels'!We've had over 150 years to discuss his ideas, and thousands of thinkers have gone through his works, and come to the conclusion that he didn't know what he was talking about.If this is news to you, robbo…

[Anonymous]

robbo203 wrote:

LBird wrote:

robbo203 wrote:

There is, of course, also this famous circular of 1879 to the German Party signed by both Marx AND Engels (which moreover was actually written by Engels himself) which gives the lie  to LBird's, as usual, groundless speculations.   Leninist vanguardism had its orgins in part in the emergent trend towards vanguardism and elitism within the broader Social Democratic movement as a whole , to which trend both Marx AND Engels defiantly expressed their uncompromising opposition.

mcolome1 wrote:

Both Marx and Engels opposed elitism and the concept of leadership 

One day, lads, you're going to have to read what I write, rather than arguing with a myth of your own making.

 And why should we attach any importance to what you write? After all it is not as if you are really interested in any kind of serious debate given your point blank refusal to answer questions put to you, time after time. So I take whatever you say with a pinch of salt frankly Sorry but I attach rather more importance to what Engels wrote than what you write and if Engels says quite candidly that  he is opposed to elitism and vanguardism – which is exactly what he did – then I have good grounds for thinking that was indeed his position.  Or are you adopting the elitist standpoint of declaring you know better what Engels thought than Engels.    

I have read the works of Marx and Engels and I have not seen any kind of elitism, the only one who tried to say that they were elitist was Bakunin,( the real creator of the concept of Marxism )  and he is a proto-Leninists, and now we have the speaker of Engels saying that he was elitist. Like Robbo says: I trust more on the affirmation of Engels than in the false acussation of L Bird. Now he wants us to worship L Bird's  writtings, He should talk wit the Leninist to turn him into one of the classic of Marxism, and hand his picture next to Lenin and Stalin, Enver Hoxha and Mao.He said Read what I write, but we  have  been reading his repeated statements since the very beginning of this forum, that is the same tactic used by the Jehovah Witnees to indoctrinate his members, repeat, repeat, repeat and repeat, and then he talks about relgiious ideas, religion is worshipping and that is what he wants us to do, in this playing ground. What about repeal, repeal and repeal ? 

[Anonymous]

LBird wrote:

robbo203 wrote:

  Or are you adopting the elitist standpoint of declaring you know better what Engels thought than Engels.    

Of course we 'know better what Engels thought than Engels'!We've had over 150 years to discuss his ideas, and thousands of thinkers have gone through his works, and come to the conclusion that he didn't know what he was talking about.If this is news to you, robbo…

 Probably, you have adding problems, or you are suffering from allucinations,  because only a few persons have raised that kind of critiques against Engels, and most of the others have recognized that he also made contributions to Socialism, probably, more than you. I was in the middle of peoples  who were critical to Engels, but they were not thousands, they were a few 

[robbo203]

LBird wrote:

robbo203 wrote:

  Or are you adopting the elitist standpoint of declaring you know better what Engels thought than Engels.    

Of course we 'know better what Engels thought than Engels'!We've had over 150 years to discuss his ideas, and thousands of thinkers have gone through his works, and come to the conclusion that he didn't know what he was talking about.If this is news to you, robbo…

 So when  Engels wrote…When the International was formed we expressly formulated the battle-cry: the emancipation of the working class must be achieved by the working class itself. We cannot therefore co-operate with people who say that the workers are too uneducated to emancipate themselves and must first be freed from above by philanthropic bourgeois and petty bourgeois …you reckon he didnt know what he was talking about or that he was opposing an elitist and vangardist position. Little wonder that nobody takes you seriously on this forum, LBird

[LBird]

You'll do anything, and slander anyone, to avoid discussing democratic production, workers' power, and our production of our knowledge, won't you, robbo?Why not read the link I gave to the LibCom article, if you don't want to read what I write?

[robbo203]

LBird wrote:

You'll do anything, and slander anyone, to avoid discussing democratic production, workers' power, and our production of our knowledge, won't you, robbo?Why not read the link I gave to the LibCom article, if you don't want to read what I write?

 LOL LBird.  You need to look in the mirror, I suggest. before shooting off accusations of this nature.  I am more than happy to discuss democratic production but every time I try to do so you curtail the dscussion by refusing point blank to answer any question that would compromise your Leninist view of "communism" such as whether there will be a role for local democracy in communism. Specifically on this point about Engels I produce a quote from Engels which directly contradicts your claim that he favoured elitism.  So what do you do in response? Retreat into obscurantism and wishy washy commentary unrelated to the point of contention.  And then you have the nerve to talk of others "avoiding discussion".  Ha!

[Bijou Drains]

Well here's a simpe enough question to ask L Bird. In your vision of unfettered democratic socialism, will there be limits to who votes and who doesn't?

[LBird]

Tim Kilgallon wrote:

Well here's a simpe enough question to ask L Bird. In your vision of unfettered democratic socialism, will there be limits to who votes and who doesn't?

That's a democratic decision.I know that this answer doesn't fit in with your elitist vision of 'fettered undemocratic socialism'.Why not read the LibCom article?

[Author]

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