Coronavirus
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Robbo has expressed a similar view as your neighbour on this forum , Rod…and has chosen to wait while practicing current precautions …masks and distancing.
There will be a few who will suffer side-effects. That is inevitable but there will be no Thalidomide effect, mostly minor symptoms
And there may be differing side-effects from the different vaccines.
Early report of an adverse reaction in Alaska but authorities assure it was a rare event
A SECOND healthcare worker has allergic reaction to COVID-19 vaccine (msn.com)
Personally, i can’t wait to get mine
Anybody can have side effects with these vaccines or any other vaccines, and it is very hard to be predicted. Allergy is the most common reactions and most hospitals have medications and treatment for that type of reaction including some doses of Benadryl
Can anyone give me some info on the history of long-term adverse effects from vaccines. One of my neighbours, though not anti-vax per se, isn’t going to have a Covid vaccine because it’s unproven and there’s no way of knowing of adverse effects in the longer term. He would (quite sensibly) rather remain healthy than have tens of thousands of pounds of compensation lobbed at him years hence (assuming liability could be proved).
Hi Rod. Usually clinical trials of any immunization or pharmatherapy take place in relatively controlled studies. You might know of control groups (blind testing on placebo and treatment being tested).
Thing is these are usually sample sizes or n- number of people in the study (sometimes the numbers or n can be 40,000 in trials [numbers of trial participants can be made to relect a ratio of the population as a whole]). The issue is that when rolled out in general populations, more evidence can be gleamed from greater numbers, and some adverse reactions, or even more known benefits (what a binary). Time and numbers is important in smaller trials to get a snapshot of its efficacy.
I won’t name a particular pain medication by brand (or I would publish a nightmare for myself), but it started out as private patient (and small numbers), but when it became subsidised and public patient, the number of patients using it increased, and so did the observed side effects (adverse) become more known… and so could screen out and monitor those not suitable for its use
it is a tough call, but a call that can be managed… trial number and time… and tweak the cohort it is administered to, is better than not using it.
Open disclosure is so crucial, and informed choice or notional assent..
Depending on the decision to get it or wait, following universal hazard precautions will be the first defense for self and for others.
Be safe all, I know you are going into festive season, and in Europe winter is cocktail for transmission: warm moist environments indoors and the human need to huddle.
“The issue is is that when rolled out in general populations, more evidence can be gleamed from greater numbers, and some adverse reactions, or even more known benefits (what a binary). “
This suggests that the rational attitude that an individual should take in their own personal interest is not to rush to be at the head of the queue for a new vaccine but to wait for millions to have had it first. Then we will know more about the adverse affects and who is likely to suffer them. I expect the new vaccines will be safe but they won’t be perfectly safe. So, unlike Alan, I am going to be wait to be done. I’d also prefer one where you only need one jab not two and for it to be done in a hospital not some local surgery unequipped for emergencies.
Anyway, Alan, you go first. You’re a better man than me, Gunga Din
Actually, ALB, my chief concern is that i’m not going to lucky enough to be located in one of those countries with early access to the vaccine. I have read it will be mid-2021 for the mass roll-out and they will be locally manufactured , licensed from AstraZeneca.
But i am in one of the countries that has a very low mortality rate. Only 60 deaths and unlike other less reliable statistics, i’m fairly sure it is an accurate figure. Masks were already popular before the pandemic due to traffic pollution. I’m impressed by the local health clinic coverage. Local health workers are regularly visiting the house to do diabetes and blood pressure tests.
However, i may not be on any medical lists being a foreigner…i may have to pay the full commercial price of a vaccine. And if it is near the price of anti-rabies shots which i recently had…it will be close to a 100 quid…so if you come across a vaccine effective at room temperature, mail me some.
ALB, I have thought that too. I want to be altruistic; and I don’t want to not be altruistic.
I work on the frontline of social assistance- the less known frontline worker. But we are all frontline- hate that idea of promoting one or the other.
The numbers are rushed in any emergency. Get it out, and get some solution… quick. We can wait for more testing… almost meta data for large scale population vaccine… know its effects, efficacy… its known results… or we do it on the fly- go and assess.
I am not biomedical but look at it through social/therapeutic evidence based practices… and yet, time is needed (my respect to those who came forward for the clinical trials).
ALB- it is choice… some narratives in employment are already saying “no jab:no job”. now that is coercive.
Again, the best choice is know the science. The best defense is universal practice of hazard reduction.
It is essential that frontline workers get these jabs, as well as vulnerable members of the population with other health problems which may compromise their immune systems. Others may feel less inclined to rush things, but could unwittingly be carriers while not showing any symptoms themselves.
Cool heads yes, but there is no room for complacency, comrades.
However, i may not be on any medical lists being a foreigner…i may have to pay the full commercial price of a vaccine. And if it is near the price of anti-rabies shots which i recently had…it will be close to a 100 quid…so if you come across a vaccine effective at room temperature, mail me some.
Alan, I did not know your situation. It is not ethical for health care, or any kind of care, to be based on wealth- and due to this, the problem will be increased. I need to work- so I won’t test.. I can’t afford the jab… so I go unprotected… and the such.
Vaccine politics is showing the wealth/poverty divide so systemic in capital societies. And between them..
Cool heads yes, but there is no room for complacency, comrades.
Matthew.. right on the button. And there is no room- Can you imagine spreading the viral load from one client to another… not to mention our family and community.
We have talked science and believing on other threads… need to keep it in mind, facts based, not ideological spin. We should not abandon that method, though requiring further testing, but builds to a bigger picture…
I have a feeling, me first… as usual… but needed by us all.
Whether to be a guinea pig, or be one of the first in line for a new treatment, I’m sure would be one of the issues faced by people in a socialist society. It would be interesting to see how that played out. I daresay much like today, with some willing and some not, but without the financial and political complications. If only.
This suggests that the rational attitude that an individual should take in their own personal interest is not to rush to be at the head of the queue for a new vaccine but to wait for millions to have had it first. Then we will know more about the adverse affects and who is likely to suffer them. I expect the new vaccines will be safe but they won’t be perfectly safe. So, unlike Alan, I am going to be wait to be done. I’d also prefer one where you only need one jab not two and for it to be done in a hospital not some local surgery unequipped for emergencies.
Problem with this ‘rational attitude’ is, if it’s rational for you to wait and see what happens to other people, it’s also rational for them to wait and see what happens to you, ergo, it’s a quasi-antivaxxer argument. It also presupposes you’ll have a choice in the matter. States may not force people to take vaccines when offered, but they’d be pretty stupid not to make a note of who’s refused. That could well have consequences later, especially if you subsequently get Covid.
Obviously everyone would prefer a single-jab vaccine, on grounds of cost and also because people won’t come back for the second dose, but they are technically difficult to produce and have a long history of failure, see: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41541-020-00238-8#Sec4 .
One is currently in trials, but don’t hold your breath. Usually the way it works is, first you have to prime the immune system to start producing antigens. Then, once it’s woken up and knows what to do, you give the booster to ‘explain the urgency’ and ramp up production. The only known way to shortcut this two-step process is with a ‘slow release’ formula, but here’s where the tech difficulties lie. Even if a single-jab vaccine was developed that could send the immune system into high gear without overwhelming it in the process, chances are it would only work in young people with strong immune systems.
Personally I propose to take what’s offered, whenever it’s offered, continue to take precautions nonetheless, and not expect the moon on a stick.
Alan said ‘i may have to pay the full commercial price of a vaccine.’
It may not be that bad, Alan. AstraZeneca, the one with the fridge-temperature vaccine, is proposing to sell at cost, which equates to around 30 GB pounds for two doses, but more to the point, Moderna and others have waived IP rights for the duration of the pandemic, so it’s quite possible for third-party manufacturers to come into play, especially in poorer areas accustomed to making their own knock-offs, such as South America and south-east Asia. So I think chances are good that affordable vaccines will become available, especially as all governments realise it’s in their own interest to back this. You may have had to pay full wack for a rabies shot, but people don’t tend to catch rabies off each other so there’s no global rabies crisis. People also don’t catch malaria off each other, which is why globally governments are happy to leave the matter largely to the Gates Foundation.
If I were you I’d sit tight and wait, and worry more about fake vaccines, which will also be proliferating in your part of the world, thanks to the good old capitalist profit motive.
I think socialism will open the way to more preventative thinking, free of the capitalist motives that today lie behind more and more medicines, we should require, eventually, less and less. Our relationship with nature, for a start, should become saner and healthier.
“Problem with this ‘rational attitude’ is, if it’s rational for you to wait and see what happens to other people, it’s also rational for them to wait and see what happens to you, ergo, it’s a quasi-antivaxxer argument. It also presupposes you’ll have a choice in the matter. States may not force people to take vaccines when offered, but they’d be pretty stupid not to make a note of who’s refused. That could well have consequences later, especially if you subsequently get Covid.”
By coincide a sympathiser who is over 80 (and who used to teach philosophy) phoned me this morning to ask if he should take the jab. He had been invited to have it when he goes to his local hospital to pick up some other medicines he has.
He too made the point that to say “let others go first” was unethical in that it couldn’t be a general rule or, if it was, nobody would go for the jab.
He also told me that he had been asked to sign a form saying that he agreed to come for the jab on Tuesday. Obviously he wouldn’t have to come even if he signed this but, as you say, the state would have a record of this which might later be held against him.
He texted me just now to say that he was on his way to the hospital to say yes on the grounds that, being a philosopher, he had no alternative. By the time my turn comes millions will have gone before me so I won’t face his philosophical dilemma.
The only difference between the Pfizer and the Moderna vaccine is that Moderna can be kept in a regular refrigerator and it can be more accessible to poor countries but they are not 100% safe. There is not any medication which is 100% safe, and for all vaccines, they are using the mRNA system, and it is a very advanced technology because at present we do not have to wait 10 years to get a vaccine. Doctors can not make miracles and in Medicine, 2×2 is 5 it is not 4.
Peoples who are allergic to Penicillin should wait a little longer because they are going to have an allergic reaction, research about the Covid 19 prevention and treatment is going to continue, the real heroes in this situation are the scientists, the pathologists, the doctors and nurses who are in the front line and many have died
Most peoples who are getting infected with Covid 19 is because they are not following medical advice, and they prefer to listen to a stupid populist leader and many have had pre-medical conditions or did not have a proper diet in their whole life, eating hamburgers, hot dogs, fast food, and pizza every day will not provide a good defence to your body, and many peoples have been affected by capitalism where they have not been able to obtain the proper protection and medical accessories
It is much better to wear a mask than no to wear any mask, it is much better to stay home than going to a restaurant, a bar, a church, or to celebrate a holiday. If you are not sure that you can have an adverse reaction from the vaccine do not get one, but you might take the risk of getting infected. This disease is not a joke like Trump want to present this situation, it is a lack of respect to science and the peoples who have died, after having this disease nobody get out stronger, that is only a lie, and also he received the medical treatment that none of his followers is going to get
I do not follow any conspiracy theory, I do not care if the vaccine was financed by Soros, Bill Gates, the Illuminatis, the deep state, I am going to get one pretty soon, if I die, I already paid my dues, in any way my body is going to be donated to a medical school for dissection practice
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