Conspiracy Theories and how big business-aka -your government won the propaganda war
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Why cant you just argue the points to me instead of quoting articles and websites .For every one you can quote I can quote 2 or more that contradicts yours. It surprises me you take the neo-con government line for a socialist group . The World is full of investigative journalists etc who along with Snowdon and others have no problem showing the UK/US governments wouldnt know the truth if they tripped over it in the road . I cant believe you are so "taken in " by lies from neo-cons . Think back I can remember when the Marxist and Socialist parties were infiltrated by MI5 it was in the UK "news " even went out on marches etc. You seem scared to criticise the government straight to its face or do you not want your PC scrambled or your website attacked by DDOS attacks and GCHQ causing you problems . You come across as the "acceptable face " of socialism in the eyes of the government no radicalism -no fire in the belly and NO danger to HM Government. and certainly no help for the poor you think you speak for but inreality dont . Why do you slag off the 99 % because they dont vote for you ? .The website I post on has today 40000 hits from Romania a country the US has in its grasp.and yet we are totally opposed to the US/UK far right neo-con values. Look in the future do you see one for socialism in the UK without a revolution of the people which you will never get . Can you not even reach out to other left wing groups because of "principles " principles never swayed the masses only down to earth physical actions by a group of people to show and help the poor.
Would you like to comment on Putin and the Chechen war the destruction of Grozny "to save it".As i have read your comments all that strikes me is your one world view of US/UK.Are not other countries imperialist or aspiring imperialists? Do other countries not impose surveillance?When people such as Robbo have engaged you in deeper debate, you simply do not answer but repeat your original opinions. He said to you "Capitalism exists because we the masses, the working class, allow it to exist."Let us be honest, this applies to all the "liberties" and "freedoms" being gradually eroded and removed. We, the people, permit it because we accept the arguments being put forward by our rulers.The German people on the whole acquiesced to Hitler because they agreed with him.Even in Russia and its satellites people accepted the status quo for decades. Rosa Luxemburg expresses it well "Those who don't move, do not notice their chains"The collapse of the Eastern European dictatorships arose when people refused to co-operate any longer with the State. Umm…should the SPGB collaborate with the left -wing as you suggest and in doing so, accept their very questionable adherence to democracy and freedom…or have you never heard of how dissidents are expelled for not following their Party Line to the letter?
Okay alan I will comment on Chechnia .When Yeltsen took over Russia he let the US/UK rip off Russia ,he was always drunk .At that time all the UK papers were saying what a nice man (as they ripped him off ) a lot of the soviet countries declared their independence from Russia at the same time as Gorby and Yeltsin were in power Still they said as per Maggie =quote -this is a man we can do business with. But near the end of Yelsin and the beginning of Putin Chechin Islamist war lords rose up . Now these "nice men " wanted to create a greater republic of Islam under Dudayev etc etc they destroted the republics -health centres -education-social security they started up drug factories for profit sold 90 % of the oil for profit for themselves as this was going on 10,s of 1000,s of refugees fled the country . THey were a hub of financial fraud -counterfeiting bank notes they remioved custom barriers -tax controls and the country was a safe haven for the worlds criminals . Not content with that they invaded Dagestan and robbed trains they also blew up 4 large appartment blocks for families 2 in Moscow 1 in South Russia 1 in Gagestan killing 246 people . They also planted bombs in Moscow underground killing more . And if that is not enough -although it was hushed up here , they DECAPITATED TWO BT ENGINEERS working there . I should know it happened while I worked for BT . Do you honestly tghink that Putin should put up with that ???? . He saw KOsovo being bombed by NATO-aka the US /UK so if they can bomb a foreign country should he not be able to bomb his OWN territory ????? This was okay with the US as it made Russia unstable just as they are trying to do justb now . Now if Mexico said to the US we want back New Mexico-California -Texas and caused the SAME trouble do you think for 1 millisecond the US would say okay and let them carryb on so no hypocracy please !! I cant for the life of me understand how you can be so brainwashed by the UK government thats why I said you and the British Nationalist were infiltrated by MI 5 years ago and YES I remember them boasting about it in the UK press. You tell me to get real but you are living in unreality permanently .You know you will neverv achieve power here so why not get real and join others who are on the same side of the fence ?? You do know that MI5 etc will help to keep you going as you are no threat to them only people like me get attacked for showing up government lies. TEll me WHEN you are going to get the 99 % behind you instead of just dreaming of a Marxist -Martix ??? ONly action counts nothing else and that should be directed against the UK government but you seem dead scared to criticise the government in strong terms either because of a fear of retaliation or you are working for the government. I do know how the spy services operate I have spent years watching and listening to what they do. And they would applaud you.
Darren redstar wrote… “The conspiracy theory talk has disappeared from the website ITS ALL A PLOT!!! or not”Aah, well-spotted! The Lizards will not be pleased I hope all is well now…http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/audio/what-conspiracy-theories-arent-telling-you
Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. I expected better even your opposite numbers in politics are a bit more sincere.
Duncan, as i suspected you are one of those people who feels the need to take sides and declines to take what is called a third camp position…a plague on all houses…or as the IS/SWP put it "Neither Washington or Moscow".You choose one version of hisory to support your claims and disregard other details that conflict with the narrative you already a priori decided upon. The history of Chechyna independence begins in the 19th century and follows on from Russian expansionist imperialism, under the Tsar and then under the Bolsheviks. The collapse and the creation of the new Soviet-stans offered a renewed opportunity for nationalists.But you are correct…The West did consider it okay for the bombing of civilians as it recognised the region as fully inside Russia's sphere of influence. But socialists don't accept that as a legitimacy. We condemn it and we condemn the price paid in the blood of the innocent victims. You are, of course, way off the mark concerning the SPGB criticism of UK government action, arising from ignorance of the Party history or you would be aware that WE were the ONLY party who unequivocably opposed the the First World War and the Second World War and ALL wars. This, of course, led to th arrest and imprisonment and harassment of members and the imposition of restrictions on the distribution of our literature. In the US through all the Red Scares and McCarthy witchhunts our companion Party held public meetings where it could. You insult the bravery and courage and sacrifice of people who put political conviction before personal safety. It is you who should reproach yourself for your lack of knowledge. We do not seek political power for our Party but for our class which does put us on the other side of the fence of those you hope we should make alliance with…and if we stand alone….so be it….It is not actions that count….it is ideas…for those determine the actions, their means and their aims….and you are very short on ideas, Duncan. You concentrate on effects and symptoms not the causes, and even there you are not particularly accurate in your diagnosis much less in your supposed remedies (which i read little of) You and i travel separate paths for different goals…your view of the world is one i do not share. I'm happy you are not a comrade of mine, Duncan.You may think that a sectarian position but it is principled…but this is what the Scottish writer, Ken Macleod once said …"Think about those who call the SPGB sectarians …they themselves usually happen to be a split from a split from a split "…Or in the words of Homer Simpson "DOH" You ask us to join with other groups who have their own track history of being utterly incapable of forming a coalition. The words kettle and pot spring to my mind when i hear such opinions from the likes of yourself. I will now go a lot further, Duncan, and incur the wrath of the moderator and perhaps offend other contributors to the thread …i do not believe for one moment in your belief that you have been targeted by GCHQ or any other part of the state…i hazard a guess that you suffer mental health problems, perhaps paranoid schizophrenia or merely a persecution complex. Take the medication the doctor prescribed, Duncan, until you can see things clearly because at the moment the view of the world that you possess is a distortion of reality and it is delusional. That is why you are prone to conspiracy theories. First warning: 2. The forums proper are intended for public discussion. Personal messages between participants should be sent via private message or by e-mail.
alanjjohnstone wrote:I will now go a lot further, Duncan, and incur the wrath of the moderator and perhaps offend other contributors to the threadAlan, your powers of premonition are amazing.I'm somewhat lost for words and more than a little disappointed that you choose to dismiss someone as having mental health issues, simply because they do not share your world view. How many times have SPGB members been branded as delusional, harebrained, crackpots etc, because they see the world differently to what is considered "normal".Delusional adjective 1. having false or unrealistic beliefs or opinions The second part of the above definition likely sums up the stance of the SPGB/WSM in the eyes of most who have come in contact with it and its members. First warning: 2. The forums proper are intended for public discussion. Personal messages between participants should be sent via private message or by e-mail.
SP, as i said in the post, i knew full well i would risk offending….But if my opinion was based on one post then i maybe accused of jumping to conclusions but there has been a series of posts that led me to that opinion. It is no reflection on Duncan's intelligence. He is well read and well informed but it does raise the issue of why he reaches certain conclusions from his learning. But alternatively i could have simply accused Duncan of lying to himself and us. I chose the more charitable option, that he may not be responsible for his claims. Or do you honestly believe he has been specially targeted and his computer hacked by GCHQ as he freqiuently alleges. One thing that has been explained by Snowden and Greenwald…you'd never likely to know you have been spied upon, they aren't so clumsy that people would find out. It took anti-virus corporations with vast resources and skills to determine the hacking existed and to what extent…and that was only after being tipped off that it was happening by Snowden, the whistleblower. I am well aware of psychiatry being used against political dissidents. The USSR were famous for saying if you disagree with the system you were mad. I was once was influenced by RD Laing that mental illness never existed and it was simply a different view of the world and a manner of coping with the world…i have long changed my opinion on that. I may well be wrong in my assumption about Duncan's mental state, but if i am not, the worse response is to say …you are okay…you are perfectly normal…like many politely do, …i'm more direct…i will say if i think you need therapy or treatment …go get itYou might say my psychological issue is arrogance and know-it-all
Alan,You are out of order mate and that is the simple fact of the matter here. You do not know Duncan, you have never met him and I don't think you are a qualified psychiatrist either. Yet you are able to offer a possible diagnosis of his mental state. And for whose benefit? What service does it perform to offer your opinion of some ones state of mind? It serves one purpose, that of dismissing them as irrelevant.I recall that when an SPGB member's socialist integrity is brought into question, it is considered unacceptable, terrible even. Likewise if you or I were to call someone a fucking moron, that too would be out of order.If you disagree with Duncan or anybody else you are free to say so. You are also free to refrain from commenting. You are even, as far as I'm concerned, free to make discussions personal. Though in doing so you expose your intentions to willingly cause insult. Your questioning Duncan's mental state was unnecessary and a deliberately inflammatory remark, how could it be otherwise, and as such you enter the realm of the internet troll. A shame really as your post up to that point was well presented.I said you are free, as far as I'm concerned, to insult people, to expose your mental/emotional state, for all to see and judge. You are also free to apologise.
Well well ! the true nature comes out -agree with me -or else ! We are back to primary school playground comments or the type of statement put forward by government propaganda services to denigrate the worth of any statement put out to counter government lies. Exactly like the US neo-cons lying 24/7 about Russia and Putin. via VOA-Fox ""news ""-CNN the BBC etc 10000s of intellectuals Worldwide agree with me. Even US citizens .You say its ideas that count not actions ??? ideas are ZERO if not put into Practice ,no wonder the 99 % dont vote for you and never will . I repeat you are the same as a university debating society talk and no action . You refuse to face the reality of very low votes UK wide ,not even Scotland sees you as a alternative to the Tories as they vote for the SNP which compared to new labour is far to the left. IT implements socialist policies not just waffle about them . In the late 50,s to approx 1965 my cousin and I had communication receivers we both listened to VOR -aka Radio Moscow as well as communist satellite states -why ?? to get an alternative view of the World , In the 70,s when I joined BT (while still government controled ) my cousin tried to join as well he was knocked back -why ? because unlike me he wrote letters to them these were intercepted . My cousin went on to be a college lecturer so it wasnt lack of ability I just kept my mouth shut . You dont even realise you have been brought up to believe government propaganda even though it is total lies . This is easily shown by the actions (not ideas ) of the US/ UK/Israel they since the 1950,s have started war after war killing millions of World citizens -false flag after false flag but that is okay with you but Putin is "aggressive " a warmongerer" whereas in reality its the West that is on Russia,s door via NATO every flight of Russian planes is blown up whereas Nato flying round Russia,s border is "okay " with you . I am on the side of the 99 % and an audience -Worldwide -agree with me and others on our website -more and more members join because we tell the TRUTH! unlike liar Obommer and Cameron millionaire thats why we are attacked to stop the TRUTH being told . Come on John justify Obommer,s/Cameron,s and Nutteryahu,s ACTIONS in this World to me. ???
i admire your defence but i have tired of the insults to our integrity as socialists from Duncan or perhaps you never noticed those…. Patience and tolerance are not in inexhaustible supply and does run out. Shall i quote just from this thread and not all his previous postings.
Quote:…you are not really sincere in being radical but only play a kids game at it . …It is you that live in a fairy land of non-reality…you know it but wont admit it living in dreamland permanently maybe you think you are being brave posting here but HEr Majesties Government is laughing its head off at you -WHY ?? -because you present NO Danger to them but just a talking shop while real radicals like me and others are consrtantly attacked for our point of view . Your website isnt attacked nor are your members so really you are bedroom anarchists no better than a bedroom hacker while the "big boys " deal with reality . Stay in your self imposed dreamworld and leave real politics to adults. …BY believing big business lies you condemn yourselves to be a part of that government and a willing suplicant to its will -how the mighty have fallen…You are the "safe " version of socialism ,the government accepted and approved version so much so I would not be suprised if some GCHQ part timers (paid ) post here….So carry on as you are, the UK government loves you you are stifling reality and helping big business make sure (like the US) that the workers in the UK have to work two or more jobs just to survive while you go on talking of the metaphysics of Marxism you are helping big business make life hell for the UK poor…. You come across as the "acceptable face " of socialism in the eyes of the government no radicalism -no fire in the belly and NO danger to HM Government. and certainly no help for the poor you think you speak for but inreality dont ….I cant for the life of me understand how you can be so brainwashed by the UK government thats why I said you and the British Nationalist were infiltrated by MI 5 years ago and YES I remember them boasting about it in the UK press. You tell me to get real but you are living in unreality permanently …. you seem dead scared to criticise the government in strong terms either because of a fear of retaliation or you are working for the government. I do know how the spy services operate I have spent years watching and listening to what they do. And they would applaud you…If do not think these are reasoned observations, supported by facts…They are irrational rantings….hence my lay-man's diagnosis …and i don't need to be a psychiatrist to reach such a conclusion. If i met him in the pub, and heard his statements, i would say to his face i think he is a nutter…i see no difference from doing it online…i'm happy to suffer the consequence of the moderator's sanctions for saying it here…. Second warning: 2. The forums proper are intended for public discussion. Personal messages between participants should be sent via private message or by e-mail.
Alan,I've said it is entirely up to you how you want to present yourself here. I'm not a moderator. But if you, a socialist, think it appropriate to dismiss someone because you think they are a "nutter" then I think socialism is a long way off. I agree that Duncan is well read, intelligent and sincere, I disagree with his analysis of the SPGB/WSM and he presents no credible alternative to the horrors of capitalism, when questioned. But that doesn't automatically make him a "nutter" any more than it does you or me for thinking those who reject our socialist analysis of society are wrong.I'm sure you are aware that the issue of mental illness is an area that is prone to misunderstanding and prejudice. You have demonstrated that perfectly. As once you decided upon Duncan's diagnosis, you proceded to use that diagnosis to dismiss his opinions.Nice one, very helpful.Second warning: 2. The forums proper are intended for public discussion. Personal messages between participants should be sent via private message or by e-mail.
I actually felt a bit emotional at those defending me against being called a "nutter " I was not expecting anyone to defend me in that issue I must rethink that there is balance here. My whole attempt is not to slag off the SPoGB but to somehow move you into action even if it is to disagree with me . You can only go by what life has done to you and your reaction to it .I learned early in life that words are all very well if its to do with a legal response to a situation in life (ie-get a laywer) but more was achieved by me when I took a physical response to a situation causing me trouble . That has achieved quicker results . I know you dont agree with Left-Unity but ,for the life of me , I just cant understand why you could not say= Well we dont agree with your politics but on a grander scale we do have things in common and that the end justifies the means ie- you all want to help the poor/sick/old of which I am in agreement 100 % . I get emails from organisations who know that that is my object as nothing is secret on the web to help them by signing petitions etc in many worthwhile causes my whole mind is centered round thev poor 24/7 and I get very angry with our and the US,s neo-con policies,thats just me I cant help it and yes I upset our government for putting the blame where it rightly belongs and therefore they try to shut me up by physical means of attack . That doesnt put me off because in my mind is one straight road for me to travel I dont deviate because I know what I do helps others and will help them till the day I die.
alanjjohnstone wrote:I'd ask them for their most convincing piece of evidence which proved to them that it was not Oswald alone and then i provided the answer to that "evidence"…that was they asserted was not actually true, (usually the magic bullet , or the timing of the shots) …that it was based upon wrong information…or it didn't happen the way they said it did…that contrary statements and evidence have been offered that are more plausible ..but every time i answered their "definitive proof" ….they'd produce some other so-called fact to be answered…irrelevant factoid after factoid..and the same process was repeated and repeated and repeated…Until it simply got to the stage that it was a conspiracy because it was so successful in being covered up and we'll never know the truth …There's an excellent account of this kind of thinking here (it starts at about 28 minutes in), a lot of this is caused by a failure to take into account how our thinking processes work..https://soundcloud.com/youarenotsosmart/046-inbetweenisode-11-steven-novella
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