Can You Fathom A World Without Money And Without Disease?
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Article from the "Waking Times" website…
http://www.wakingtimes.com/2014/09/22/can-fathom-world-without-money-without-disease/
The idea of a moneyless society is slowly but surely gaining traction.
It's basically a "New Age" news site, but that shouldn't put any one off because as Ozy said, the idea is growing.I like this bit.
Quote:Think about how technology will change when money no longer drives the economy. Today, companies have to design technology and commodities to break down. If things are not made with an artificially limited useful life, how will companies make a profit, and thus sustain themselves or the services they provide. The new paradigm will see technology offer sustainability at another level due to the abolishment of planned obsolescence. A new consciousness will ensure things are created and built to last.So What Next?So how do you move from a society that depends on people’s self-interest to a society that is of global-interest? When you remove money out of this equation, the motivation to do work suddenly changes. Without money people are motivated to work for each other. It essentially means that the business mentality that has shaped most societies for thousands of years will cease to exist. Business will not survive because there is no competition, no money and no motive of self-interest.http://www.wakingtimes.com/2014/09/22/can-fathom-world-without-money-without-disease/I've put the link on here again Ozy as I couldn't get on via your link. Don't know why.
Cheers mate. I guess I was kind of disappointed when I watch the video link they provide because it looks as if it's The Venus Project which is behind this.
Yes, it is the VP project – however don't be disappointed. I put a comment up and gave a link to our site and to Paddy's video Capitalism and Other Kid's Stuff – you never know who might follow it up. We just have to keep on doing what we can.
Here's an interesting question, could we describe The Venus Project and TZM as socialists? Might sound like a bit of a daft question, to all concerned but I would consider people who have ideas such as this, fellow travelers along the road to a truly human society.I guess it depends on how a socialist is defined?Just a little something to think about.
Following up on your 'interesting question' I wonder if you've seen the article I posted on SOYMB yesterday? A view from the Philppines with much that resonates with our viewpoint:http://www.socialismoryourmoneyback.blogspot.com.tr/2014/09/statement-from-philippines-socialist.htmlCould be a discussion point here too.
Wow! There can be no doubt that something is spreading. I wonder if the PLM in the Philippines, and Morales in Bolivia, are aware of the WSM?It would be nice to think of us as intermediaries between these 'socialistic' parties in various countries, and having enough clout to get them to work together and see the need to think worldwide and abolish government itself. I don't think groups such as Zeitgeist will be concerned with that sort of thing, being non-political.Dream over.
Hi JSAn interesting article. I like the statement I've quoted below. As Ozy and Rodshaw say there are stirrings, whether it be from the likes of TZM and TVP or the PLM (who identify themselves as socialist). It would seem that environmental issues are a major driving force for these movements."An alternative path to the neoliberal-capitalist development model is needed: a 21st century socialist alternative. This is no time to tinker at the edges, pleading for minor changes. The capitalist system must be dismantled and a socialist system must be constructed, one that is based on social and economic solidarity and the power of the masses – a ‘bayanihang sosyalismo’ for the 21st century. There is no capitalist sustainability. A 21st century socialist alternative gives us more than a fighting chance to address the climate crisis."A question party members may be able to shed light on. There seem to be a few groups advocating similar aims as the WSM, is this something new or has it always been an idea ebbing and flowing through the last century? Hopefully we are on the cusp of a major shift in peoples consciousness, perhaps driven by the necessities of environmental sustainability and survival of our species rather than a political argument.Imagine if all such movements, WSM, TZM, TVP, PLM and others could be united under an umbrella of commonality. The desire to achieve a moneyless, leaderless, global community of democratic common ownership, that could responsibly sustain our development as a species well into the future.That would be a force to be reckoned with.
SocialistPunk wrote:A question party members may be able to shed light on. There seem to be a few groups advocating similar aims as the WSM, is this something new or has it always been an idea ebbing and flowing through the last century? Hopefully we are on the cusp of a major shift in peoples consciousness, perhaps driven by the necessities of environmental sustainability and survival of our species rather than a political argument.Imagine if all such movements, WSM, TZM, TVP, PLM and others could be united under an umbrella of commonality. The desire to achieve a moneyless, leaderless, global community of democratic common ownership, that could responsibly sustain our development as a species well into the future.That would be a force to be reckoned with.The idea of common ownership, production for use and free access always has ebbed and flowed and attracted some thousands in the industrialised countries. What's different now its attracting tens of thousands globally. Willy Morris comes to mind: "One man with an idea in his head is in danger of being considered a madman; two men with the same idea in common maybe foolish, but can hardly be mad; ten men sharing an idea begin to act, a hundred draw attention as fanatics, a thousand and society begins to tremble, a hundred thousand and there is war abroad, and why only a hundred thousand? Why not a hundred million and peace up[on the earth? You and I who agree together, it is we who have to answer that question."The idea itself is the commonality, sadly a commonality of the means is in dispute and will remain so for some time. When the neccesity of a political challenge is posed on the TZM UK facebook its always been met with a mixed reception. Which in truth, despite TZM offically rejecting politics, illustrates their supporters are split over the issue.Not having the time to spare to sign up for TVP facebook I have no idea how TVP supporters have taken to the idea of the neccesity of a political challenge. However, the sooner we contact the PLM the better.Any further links yet?
Just found this:Platform of the massesPLM advances a transitional program that represents the dismantling of the rotten capitalist system and its replacement by socialism. It consists of a set of key demands pertaining to the immediate economic reforms and political reforms that party will campaign for.It includes the nationalization of the basic industries and services, such as electricity, oil and water; the provision of basic needs of the masses, such as land, decent housing, education, jobs, and health; the establishment of a genuine government of the masses; and others.
Brian wrote:Just found this:Platform of the massesPLM advances a transitional program that represents the dismantling of the rotten capitalist system and its replacement by socialism. It consists of a set of key demands pertaining to the immediate economic reforms and political reforms that party will campaign for.It includes the nationalization of the basic industries and services, such as electricity, oil and water; the provision of basic needs of the masses, such as land, decent housing, education, jobs, and health; the establishment of a genuine government of the masses; and others.In other words, unfortunately, just another confused organisation as this extract from the PLM statement makes clear.
PLM wrote:This is demonstrated by the actions of the socialist government of Evo Morales in Bolivia. The government of Evo Morales is attempting to move Bolivia not only in a post-extractivist, but a post-capitalist direction, by helping foster the communitarian sector. It shows what is possible in a small country, when a government is prepared to break with the capitalist neoliberal agenda and follow a socialist path.Granted, most of us probably feel a bit of a lift when we read something that strikes us as positive because most of the time we feel like we're facing interminable opposition – pushing that huge rock forever up the hill.Any of these movements, whether Philippines, Bolivia and other Latin American countries are all massively constrained by the capitalist system. We accept that socialism is impossible in one country, it has to be global. That also means that all ethnicities with our widely diverse cultures have to be taken into account. people in different regions live lives often very different from each of our personal/collective norms.WSM members and sympathisers are in the main from the empire builder, coloniser countries – UK, US, Canada, Australia and english speaking with a huge baggage of history. Latin America, Phillipines etc have a different history, different baggage, that of being the colonised. Different perspectives, different goals. But seeking a way out from under. And lashing out against what is forced onto them by the system. Certainly capitalism is more widely recognised around the world as being the major factor in our troubles. That has to be good.Sorry, got to go – back later.
An article I've just found/read is pertinent to this discussion, and says in more detail than I could/would have.EG: "The states in the fifteen countries represented here range from quasi-military “democracies” of the right (Guatemala) to governments that say they are “on the road to socialism,” but which are actually “reformist” at best.[9] They, as well as their political parties, also claim to represent “the people.” But in fact, the interests of civil society, as organized in social movements, rarely converge with those of parties and states, because reformist states must respond to the pressures of international capital, local oligarchies, and other forces that directly oppose the interests of the majority."And later it talks about how all of the governments are hostage to the transnational capitalist class – with which we can largely agree – leading to discrepancies between discourse and practice.There's some really interesting perspective relating to history of the various countries and it's clear to see that so much of what's happening is about RESISTANCE to what's gone before. So, although the article is based on Latin America we can relate it too to the Phillipines, where the thread started, and to a whole host of other places. So, what do we do if we can't have socialism in one country? We resist, fight back, protest, occupy land and buildings, etc etc – as was mentioned somewhere in the article – there is a practice of unity in diversity. And we keep on doing what we can in our various ways to build the movement and keep it moving forward.Article here: http://www.upsidedownworld.org/main/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5060:until-the-rulers-obey-learning-from-latin-americas-social-movements&catid=30:international&Itemid=60or here: http://tinyurl.com/lqamfhbDefinitely worth a read.
I'm sure the likes of Morales are not far from knowing what the real solution is, if they don't already. In the article on Morales in the SS a few years ago he sounded in many respects like us, apart from the money thing: http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/socialist-standard/2000s/2008/no-1246-june-2008/material-world-evo-moralesa-call-socialismBut to attack capitalism outright on the world stage must be tricky. His views wouldn't go down too well with the governments with real clout. One could say that, in a sense, Morales is in the position socialist MPs would be in in the UK – seeing the need for socialism but in the meantime, presumably, supporting and helping to implement favourable reforms.
I think on a couple of earlier threads i have stressed the importance of engaging in the environmentalist movement and i know some loathe the need for hyphenated adjectives to socialism but we need to declare ourselves eco-socialists and explain the reasons why we are. We require to sow our seeds on soil that is fertile rather than barren.We cannot expect to discover clones of ourselves for many arrive at similar conclusions as ourselves via a different journey and unfortunately they bring their luggage with them , as we do too, so i am not dismayed that from our view some other groups appear confused on certain aspects. What i argue is that the similarities offer an opportunity for further discussion in a more comradely fashion rather than simply to always re-iterate the hostility clause because they are not in 100% agreement or arrived via a different route and still hold attachments to their route. We can be clear on our opposition to elements of anothers case but still seek debate without denouncing every other group as our class enemies. We were all a little confused in our past and it was helpful assistance and advice and education from others that got us beyond that not the finger-pointing and point-scoring. There will be people in the PLM (perhaps only a few) who will be more receptive to ourselves than others and it is for us to try and make contacts. Try and imagine if in 1902 a foreign group of Impossiblists discovered the SDF for tthe first time and judged all the SDF membership on what Hyndman wrote or from the SDF programme and dismissed the existence of Anderson and Fitzgerald et al.
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