Cameron’s EU deal

[alanjjohnstone]

Not so sure.If i was in the Leave camp i would highlight that we have Cameron/Obama effectively endorsing the EU/TTIP agreement before it is agreed. But Canada, a very much smaller economy than the UK,  is still able to negotiate its own deal with the EU through CETA. Options and Plan Bs always exist for capitalists.  As we blogged before, for the likes of Duke of Westminster and his Grosvenor empire, they know how to adapt to either result without too much inconvenience having the experience of several centuries behind them.  

[ALB]

Of course British capitalism will survive in the event of an OUT vote and adapt, probably ending up like Norway (with access to the single EU market but no say in its rules) but, given its economic weight, something less unfavourable maybe. It wouldn't be the end of the world for them even if it doesn't make complete economic sense from their point of view.PS Some of the OUTers also want to sign up to TTIP but on their own.

[ALB]

alanjjohnstone wrote:

If i was in the Leave camp i would highlight that we have Cameron/Obama effectively endorsing the EU/TTIP agreement before it is agreed.

After leaving Britain Obama flew on to Germany where one of the subjects discussed was this. But it is by no means a done deal. In fact it may never happen because of vested business interests in both the US and the EU:

Quote:

Barack Obama makes a valedictory visit to Germany Sunday to see his "friend" Angela Merkel, but their show of unity looked unlikely to curb opposition to their plans for a transatlantic trade pact.Obama will jet into the northern city of Hanover for a final bilateral visit to Europe's biggest economy.One of the headline goals of the trip is to advance negotiations on what could become the world's biggest free trade agreement, the Trans-Atlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP).Both sides say they aim to see it finalised, at least in its broad outline, before Obama leaves office in January.However Merkel's economy minister Sigmar Gabriel cast doubt on those ambitions Sunday, warning the deal "will fail" if the US refuses to make concessions in the protracted talks."The Americans want to hold fast to their 'Buy American' idea. We can't accept that. They don't want to open their public tenders to European companies. For me, that goes against free trade," Gabriel, a Social Democrat who is also Germany's deputy chancellor, told business newspaper Handelsblatt.

If I was the Leave campaign I'd concentrate on all they've got left — the fact that Cameron's deal with the EU did not achieve the reform of the EU he promised but then you have to think that immigration is the problem. That's what they are likely to concentrate on from now on, now that their "better trade deals" argument has been punctured,. It's going to be Immigration, Immigration, Border Controls and we don't want to be told how to vote by a "half-Kenyan".

[alanjjohnstone]

I note Hilarity Clinton, the odds-on favourite for the next president, has also supported UK membership of the EU, as has former president Bill Clinton. Perhaps the EU is collectively stronger economic opposition to TTIP than the nations who submitted and now are approving TPP. But below the radar are the other so-called "free trade" talks taking place in Australia.http://www.dnaindia.com/money/report-secretive-patent-talks-has-generic-drug-activists-worried-2205771

[Young Master Smeet]

You were saying? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36126993

Quote:

The UK will face a future migration "free-for-all" unless it leaves the European Union, Justice Secretary Michael Gove has warned.

[alanjjohnstone]

EU and TTIP and the UK

Quote:

Brexit wouldn’t necessarily stop TTIP anyway – that’s all down to the transition process. At the very least, Britain would need to adopt many of TTIP’s provisions in order to remain in the single market.But it gets worse: every scenario for Brexit is premised on extreme free trade agreements coupled with looser regulation to make us more competitive. “Outcompeting” the EU through lower standards is the strategy. High-profile supporters of the Brexit campaign have repeatedly said that they believe the UK would be able to realise a more “ambitious” and faster free trade deal if we stood alone. There’s every reason to think that Brexit will turn the UK into a paradise for free market capitalism: a TTIP on steroids….. If being in the EU has brought us TTIP, it has also brought us the means to stop it. Europe also allows the potential to take on the .corporate power which TTIP symbolises: the biggest threat to our sovereignty. Even in the best of circumstances, there is only so much a small nation state can do against the size and power of global big business. But through being in Europe we could stop tax avoidance, introduce a financial transactions tax, hold corporations legally responsible for their human rights abuses, enforce world-leading climate targets, develop new forms of public ownership of key resources.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/25/ttip-vote-brexit-barack-obama-leave-eu-trade-deal?CMP=twt_gu

[Socialist Party Head Office]

Socialist Party Head Office wrote:

Here's the Socialist Party statement on the EU referendum adopted by the EC at its meeting on Saturday:

Comment on this received by email at Head Office:

Quote:

To the Socialist Party of Great Britain,I have read the statement issued by your executive committee this month titled "The problem is not the EU… it's capitalism." I believe, too, that the problem is capitalism. But I am absolutely sure that the EU is irredeemably linked to Capitalism, whereas at Westminster we conceivably have the power to make the interests of big businesses a less dominant factor in politicians' decisions. Because the EU Commission is not elected. It is conceived as a capitalists' charter, and acts as such. Westminster, freed from the anti-democratic influence of the EU, will be once more the seat of a democratic government, and with democracy comes the opportunity for people who have the intention and the courage to stand up to the massive power of capitalism to be elected. I urge you to choose the devil that you can get rid of in an election, rather than the devil that you can't. Can we not try to claim Britain for the people rather than surrendering it indefinitely to a group of unelected bankers? I feel like whoever is reading this will think me quite presumptious in airing my views to a political party in this manner, but I am young and optimistic, and I really believe what I just wrote. I'd be very eager to hear your reply to this. I wonder if you'd also be interested in my petition to Jeremy Corbyn? https://www.change.org/p/jeremy-corbyn-vote-with-your-conscience-the-eu-is-a-coup-against-democracy-and-the-working-classes?recruiter=76781477&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink Please reply, I'm being ignored everywhere.Best wishes,Brendan Kjellberg-Motton

[Brian]

You claim to have read our statement on the EU referendum.  If so you need to weigh up your assumptions above against this little gem, "A State can choose that its government and parliament take the decisions required to comply with capitalism’s basic economic law (as the leavers want) or it can delegate some of these decisions to some inter-governmental body (as at present and as the stayers support), but in the end it doesn’t matter who makes the decision. Nor where, whether London or Brussels. the decision is made."The EU referendum is, like our statement explains, just another political and economic argument amongst the boss class.  For those who are supportive of either side of this argument by default they are also supportive of capitalism.

[AHS]

Brian wrote:

You claim to have read our statement on the EU referendum.  If so you need to weigh up your assumptions above against this little gem, "A State can choose that its government and parliament take the decisions required to comply with capitalism’s basic economic law (as the leavers want) or it can delegate some of these decisions to some inter-governmental body (as at present and as the stayers support), but in the end it doesn’t matter who makes the decision. Nor where, whether London or Brussels. the decision is made."The EU referendum is, like our statement explains, just another political and economic argument amongst the boss class.  For those who are supportive of either side of this argument by default they are also supportive of capitalism.

While the EU referendum may indeed be just another argument amongst the "boss class", the EU constitutes a much wider arena for the class struggle than the UK does. Do we wish to fight the good fight only here in the UK or at a European level? After all, the European level is one step closer to the world level.For me the referendum is about the size of the arena, parliamentary and otherwise, within which to make the case for socialism. Wanting to carry on the fight for socialism within the EU is NOT being supportive of capitalism. After all, do we not want this party to have a place at the table? Folding one's arms and saying "nothing to do with me" is being supportive of capitalism.

[ALB]

I agree that the case for voting Remain is stronger than the case for voting Leave but not strong enough for suspending our view that the "lesser evil" is not a valid argument for making a choice between two capitalist options. At most I suppose we could say: "Don't Vote Leave. Vote Remain if you want to, but we'll be casting a write-in vote for World Socialism".

[Brian]

AHS wrote:

Brian wrote:

You claim to have read our statement on the EU referendum.  If so you need to weigh up your assumptions above against this little gem, "A State can choose that its government and parliament take the decisions required to comply with capitalism’s basic economic law (as the leavers want) or it can delegate some of these decisions to some inter-governmental body (as at present and as the stayers support), but in the end it doesn’t matter who makes the decision. Nor where, whether London or Brussels. the decision is made."The EU referendum is, like our statement explains, just another political and economic argument amongst the boss class.  For those who are supportive of either side of this argument by default they are also supportive of capitalism.

While the EU referendum may indeed be just another argument amongst the "boss class", the EU constitutes a much wider arena for the class struggle than the UK does. Do we wish to fight the good fight only here in the UK or at a European level? After all, the European level is one step closer to the world level.For me the referendum is about the size of the arena, parliamentary and otherwise, within which to make the case for socialism. Wanting to carry on the fight for socialism within the EU is NOT being supportive of capitalism. After all, do we not want this party to have a place at the table? Folding one's arms and saying "nothing to do with me" is being supportive of capitalism.

In or out of the EU does not restrict the class struggle.  And we don't say its "nothing to do with me" what we are saying is to abstain from the bosses struggle(s) and support the struggle for socialism.  Your narrow vision of class struggle implies the struggle will benefit more from an area by area approach when the examples of class of class struggle are global in their effects rather than being isolated to one particular trading bloc.

[ALB]

Socialist Party Head Office wrote:

Comment on this received by email at Head Office:

Quote:

To the Socialist Party of Great Britain,I have read the statement issued by your executive committee this month titled "The problem is not the EU… it's capitalism." I believe, too, that the problem is capitalism. But I am absolutely sure that the EU is irredeemably linked to Capitalism, whereas at Westminster we conceivably have the power to make the interests of big businesses a less dominant factor in politicians' decisions. Because the EU Commission is not elected. It is conceived as a capitalists' charter, and acts as such. Westminster, freed from the anti-democratic influence of the EU, will be once more the seat of a democratic government, and with democracy comes the opportunity for people who have the intention and the courage to stand up to the massive power of capitalism to be elected. I urge you to choose the devil that you can get rid of in an election, rather than the devil that you can't. Can we not try to claim Britain for the people rather than surrendering it indefinitely to a group of unelected bankers?Brendan Kjellberg-Motton

The Oxford Communist Corresponding Society have adopted a similar position:

Quote:

MAGGIE MAGGIE MAGGIE…The Left and the trade union movement—the proletariat, organized—have always fought passionately for democracy: workplace democracy, economic democracy, political democracy. As the majority class, democracy is in our interest.And this isn't the first time that the popular movement has been correct to cry "Out! Out! Out!" when commenting on the issue of the day.We (or our predecessors) fought against Thatcher because she ruled in the interests of a minority class of business-owners.We fight to get out of the E.U. for the same reason: it operates in the interests of the capitalist class, and is not amenable to democratic control by the people as a whole.We cannot expect to make progressive changes to the E.U. from within, any more than we could have opposed Thatcher by joining the Conservative party.By leaving the E.U., we can bring control of law and of the economy closer to the hands of the proletariat.Let us not place the levers of power too far from us. Let us not be fettered by bodies that we do not elect. Let us take this opportunity to democratize society.Vote LEAVE on Thursday 23rd June

This is the only respectable argument for Leaving but it doesn't hold water. Britain withdrawing from the EU may give an elected government here more formal control over what it decides but not any more real control as it's not governments that control the way capitalism works but the other way wrong as governments are forced to give priority to profits and conditions for profit-making. As a capitalist trading nation on its own outside a bigger block Leaving might even give the government less control. The argument is also based on the illusion of "reformism in one country" which has tried and failed many times.

[ALB]

I see from todays papers that Sinn Fein in Northern Ireland is "firmly against Brexit". I didn't know that but I'm sure it's true. I always thought Sinn Fein in the south of Ireland was anti-EU.  I think they used to be. With a name like theirs–  "Ourselves Alone" —  they ought to be. In fact, perhaps the Leave camp should change their name to "Sinn Fein" as that's their policy for British capitalism.

[ALB]

A leftwing case for voting to Remain, by Nick Wrack formerly of TUSC (one of their candidates at last year's general election). A big change from No2EU of two years ago !http://www.socialistproject.org/issues/may-2016/brexit-international-socialism/

Quote:

a Brexit will immediately jeopardise the rights of three million EU citizens living in the UK and those of two million UK citizens living elsewhere in the EU. No one can say with any certainty whether their current rights will continue or be removed. At the very least there will be a long period of uncertainty. The right of any EU citizen who might want to move to the UK, or of a UK citizen to move elsewhere in the EU after a Brexit will almost certainly no longer exist. On this basis alone a Brexit should be opposed.Not only this, though. The most obvious beneficiaries of a Brexit will be the right-wing of the Tory Party, UKIP, nationalists and xenophobes, the anti-immigration lobby, little-Englanders and racist bigots.  A Brexit will bolster all of these reactionary trends within British society and across Europe, fuelling the anti-immigrant sentiment we now see on the rise within the EU. These are the people who will be cheering loudest if Brexit wins. They will have won on the basis of anti-immigrant scare-mongering and will be in a position to impose restrictions on immigration. Life in Britain will be more insecure and the atmosphere more hostile for immigrants after Brexit. This will be a worse environment for socialists to work in.

They've got an interesting Statement of Aims and Principles.

[Anonymous]

ALB wrote:

They've got an interesting Statement of Aims and Principles.

Apart from the first part of clause eight there is very little to quibble about.

[Author]

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