Cameron’s EU deal

[Young Master Smeet]

But also showing a less strong correlation across the English Midlands.

[ALB]

Thanks. I see. So the vote in the Midlands will have been pure anti-immigrant, not a protest against economic decline or the effects of globalisation — and not just East Europeans but an earlier generation from Asia.  Still, 40% or so voted Remain as did a majority in Leicester but then the earlier generation of immigrants are the majority there.

[Anonymous]

I was curious to see how a 'Sun' hating Liverpool voted. http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/how-liverpool-vote-compared-cities-11521041..and elsewhere, Liverpool to London."Nuneaton, the home town of George Eliot and Ken Loach, had more charity shops in its high street than anywhere I’ve ever seen. And some of those charity shops had closed down. What does it say about a town when even the charity shops are struggling?"https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/27/liverpool-london-brexit-leave-eu-referendum

[moderator1]

This article suggests it was also a reaction by the 'stupid people' against the 'smart people' in the elite.https://theintercept.com/2016/06/25/brexit-is-only-the-latest-proof-of-the-insularity-and-failure-of-western-establishment-institutions/

[Young Master Smeet]

Richard Ekins: The Legitimacy of the Brexit Referendum

Quote:

The proposal to ignore or undo the vote is unjust.  It bears noting that the relatively powerless in our polity – the poor – overwhelmingly supported exit.  Ignoring the referendum would be particularly unfair to them.  It would not be consistent with treating them as free and equal persons entitled by the law and constitution of their land to a share in self-government, not least since the rationale for ignoring the process in which they participated has so often been framed in terms of outright contempt for them.  Any failure to act on the decision made in the referendum that the UK should leave the EU would be a profound betrayal.  It would be no mere failure to recognize the perspective of the dispossessed, but would be the betrayal of holding out to them, as to others, a question for decision and then ignoring their decision because one does not like it.

There is a real danger to democracy here: a lot of contempt for the electorate from some of the losing side:

Quote:

There are very real risks in this flirtation with flouting the decision.  The risks are compounded by the rhetoric of much of this discussion, which is often frankly contemptuous of (“stupid, xenophobic”) working class voters and (“senile, selfish”) elderly voters.  It is just possible that the interests of working class and middle classes come apart here.  And even if, say, working class voters misconceived their material interest, they might reasonably have acted for other ends.  In any case, we do not or should not live in a state where disappointed middle class voters get to reverse the decisions they think their ill-informed inferiors have taken.

Quite, if the result is overturned, then many people will see an establishment fixing things in their own interest, and learn that only physical force counts, likewise turning to procedural fixes to outmanoevre the ignorant canaille establishes it's own reaction.  Likewise, finding out that what they have voted for is just not politically or practically possible leads to disillusion with the politicians that could well lead to new demagogues coming to the head.  This is not a pretty place to be in.  Cameron deserves opprium for trying to fix a vote and not preparing an exit plan; Johnson deserves brickbats for not having a clear exit plan.  In this case, the fault isn't capitalism, it is Tories.

[ALB]

One consequence of the Brexit vote is that one section of the electorate has voted to disenfranchise another, i.e. workers in this country who are EU citizens, who will no longer be able to vote in local and regional elections. This is workers losing the right to vote.How does this fit in with the democratic nature of the Brexit vote?

[DJP]

ALB wrote:

One consequence of the Brexit vote is that one section of the electorate has voted to disenfranchise another, i.e. workers in this country who are EU citizens, who will no longer be able to vote in local and regional elections. This is workers losing the right to vote.

And this, along with protecting the right to claim benefits, which many EU workers living in the UK rely on, was the main reason I went against the party line and voted "Remain". Most members view "the interests of the working class" too narrowly.Though possibly, though I think not likely, these things could be preserved post-Brexit.

[DJP]

A bit late but still interesting nonetheless.

[alanjjohnstone]

Quote:

Most members view "the interests of the working class" too narrowly.

DJP, i think quite the opposite.Many members view working class interests very broadly i.e. globally and not euro-centrically and in a historic and social context that is long-term and not based upon short-termism. You may well be correct (and i think you are)  that Brexit will result in a detrimental impact upon fellow-workers but it is not a permanent one.  It is not an existential crisis for the workers' movement. If Marx is right that the State is the executive committee of the ruling class then the apocalyptic predictions for Brexit will be very much ameliorated and as been already posted, the back-tracking has begun. The class struggle goes on.Even though we may not have made the most of it, the EU referendum was an opportunity to explain our attitude towards nationalism, both British national sovereignty and Fortress Europe. Our case was neither London or Brussels (or Strasbourg or Frankfurt or wherever) 

[ALB]

Since it's confession time, here's an email I received from a member:

Quote:

I agree with the Party' s stand on the EU Referendum but I have decided to vote remain simply because I cannot stand the xenophobia of the Leave Campaign.

I also received a phone call from a long-time sympathiser and Socialist Standard subscriber who said he had voted Remain because he felt workers had something to lose by Brexit.

[DJP]

alanjjohnstone wrote:

Brexit will result in a detrimental impact upon fellow-workers but it is not a permanent one.

Debatable, as yet there are no facts of the matter.

alanjjohnstone wrote:

It is not an existential crisis for the workers' movement.

What workers movement?

[rodmanlewis]

DJP wrote:

And this, along with protecting the right to claim benefits, which many EU workers living in the UK rely on, was the main reason I went against the party line and voted "Remain". Most members view "the interests of the working class" too narrowly.Though possibly, though I think not likely, these things could be preserved post-Brexit.

This attitude could equally apply to a general election–choosing the party which appears to most advantage the working class. General elections are just a variation on the reform programme.

[DJP]

rodmanlewis wrote:

This attitude could equally apply to a general election–choosing the party which appears to most advantage the working class. General elections are just a variation on the reform programme.

I disagree, I think there's a significant difference between a general election and a referendum. If there ever were Socialist MPs, in the absence of a majority, what is it you think they would have to be doing? But that's probably a topic for another thread.

[Young Master Smeet]

I made a comparison to Yarm, previously, it seems they've just had an exit vote:http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/yarm-in-yorkshire-referendum-reaction-7181126

Quote:

Almost 90% of those who voted in yesterday's poll backed the town being moved into North Yorkshire and placed under the control of Hambleton District Council.

That'll be ignored…

[alanjjohnstone]

Opinion polls put Scots supporting independence at 53%JP Morgan expects independence and new currency by 2019.http://www.scotsman.com/news/jp-morgan-expecting-scottish-independence-and-new-currency-1-4164909Some made the case for Remain in the EU on the basis of migrant rights – will they now support independence for Scotland for the same reason?But I do not recall any on the forum defending the 2014 Leave movement in the UK Union referendum although the SNP nationalists pledged a more liberal relaxed welcoming policy than the UK's to immigrants and migrants and encouraging the free movement of labour while offering Scottish passports to all residents in Scotland which was indeed a benefit to fellow workers particularly asylum seekers and refugees but also to those living and working here from England and elsewhere. What i am getting at is that there are always nuances to workers relationship with capitalism and the nation-state…our position has to be to put principles before immediate self-interest…As i have said i am not an economics expert so i would like others opinion on this article by Paul Cockshotthttps://paulcockshott.wordpress.com/2016/06/27/brexit-imigration-and-exploitation/

Quote:

It is quite clear that in years when immigration is high, exploitation is high. The year with the lowest exploitation rate of 53p in the £ had 200,000 immigrants, the year with the highest exploitation, 89p in the £, had 589,000 immigrants. Overall the correlation between immigration and exploitation was 75%.

So were UK workers in their own self-interest right to vote leave in a hope to exclude job competition?

[Author]

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