Cameron’s EU deal
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I`m a Party member but am voting "Remain" – not because I care for the big EU capitalists, but because "Leave" will mean more misery for workers, whether Europeans here or British abroad. It will also mean, I believe, less cosmopolitanism (and cosmopolitanism can only be good for propagating the socialist message!) and more triumphant nationalism. But I also support those members who prefer to write "World Socialism" across the ballot paper, because I support that. I`m not a reformist and couldn`t give a fig for EU capitalism, but am thinking solely of workers being made to suffer on both sides of the Channel even more than they are while part of the EU. I also believe that EU legislation offers some protection: against GM, against extradition of prisoners to non-EU countries willy-nilly, against would-be death penalty restorers, etc., Being in the EU isn`t much cop for workers, but then neither is capitalism generally. That doesn`t mean the Party should back Remain, Leave or whatever, nor cease to stand for socialism and nothing but; but individual members should not be blamed for voting Remain if they wish.
Interestingly, I was just at a work event where the CEO of a big company was giving us his take, and it was based largely around uncertainty, and also wanting to have a chance to tender for business in Europe 9and apparently American business is a bit worried as well).P.s. we're not abstaining, we're campaigning against both outcomes.
stuartw2112 wrote:I'm not the only one who deep in his heart thinks it is shameful. The editor of your journal said on this forum recently that the Lexit campaign was shameful. It is. So is abstaining, and for the same reasons.As someone else said we are not abstaining. We actively oppose the notion that any constiution of government or nation states is a solution ot the problems workers face inside capitalism. Personally I like the stance workers in France have taken recently in opposition to reductions in their working standards.
There is no reason why we shouldn't continue discussing the subject just because capitalist politicians have decided, in the wake of Jo Cox's murder, to declare a halt on the subject.
Don't know if anybody saw this about the Beast from Bolsover, Dennis Skinner, who is voting " leave" https://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-e4af-Beast-of-Bolsover-Im-voting-out#.V2LaNo9OLIX I think the argument he is putting forward is bogus. You can't fight capitalism exclusively in one country. For the same reason you cant have "socialism in one country " despite what the Stalinists say. This strand of leftism that has been drawn to state capitalist versions of what it misleadingly calls socialism has been a constant source of confusion from the word go. I had to groan when I read that Skinner wants to "save Britain from EU capitalist clutches" . Firstly it is nationalistic claptrap inspired by nationalist sentiments which have got sod all to do with socialism and are anathema to everything socialists stand for. And secondly, it is plain daft to say the EU capitalists will not continue to exert a "clutch" on the UK, post Brexit. Ironically, if anything Brexit campaigners are scrambling to reassure us that foreign investment from Europe will not be jeopardised. I am not particularly enthused to support either side – either way its not going to make much difference though I guess the Remain case is possibly slightly stronger from the workers point of view. At any rate it is slightly less incoherent and jumbled as the Beast from Bolsover amply demonstrates
rodmanlewis wrote:There is no reason why we shouldn't continue discussing the subject just because capitalist politicians have decided, in the wake of Jo Cox's murder, to declare a halt on the subject.No wonder they have. She was a Remain supporter murdered by a Brexit supporter.
A man shouted “Britain first!” before shooting and stabbing MP Jo Cox just hours after Nigel Farage unveiled this. pic.twitter.com/DRHcStOeoB
— The Socialist Party (@OfficialSPGB) June 16, 2016
That to my knowledge is not our official Twitter account.
Well, if people think it is a bit harsh then i agree it is but the twitter should stand its ground.Jo Cox was killed by someone encouraged or inspired or reinforced by Farage's nationalistic sloganeering and we should not be reticent in saying so.A word of condolences may not be amiss and that political terrorism be recognised as it is although i am betting that in the end he will be simply judged to be a deranged individual, and not that his ideas are deranged, shared to a degree by thousands of cheering fans in France and who cares about Northern Ireland's victory in the UK media.
stuartw2112 wrote:Is this the place to discuss the In/Out referendum? If so, I must say I think the party's stand on this is wrong and shameful, even from its own point of view. One of the key issues in this referendum is workers rights at work. The EU guarantees basic protections; the Outers promise to tear them up. Hence there is a clear working class interest in the poll (and that's not even to go into all the other issues, where working class interests are also at stake). In calling for abstention, the SPGB is going against its own declared position on supporting reforms in the working class interest. I hope all members will consider rebelling against the party and voting for Remain.I don't think "workers rights at work" (ir anywhere else) is a key issue. They're basically nothing to do with the EU but with what workers in their unions can stop employers getting away with. Certainly, the EU doesn't seem to be effective in preserving workers rights in France. No, the only two arguable reasons for voting Remain are the two that have been aired here: (1) to maintain the free movement of labour and (2) to protest against the xenophobia behind the Leave case. People will make up their own mind how much weight to attach to these. I'd just point out that, even in the event of a Leave win, the free movement of labour stands a good chance of staying. British capitalism needs free access to the single market and there's no chance they are going to get this unless they agree to the free movement of workers.There are of course no reasons for voting Leave, as you also point out:
stuartw2112 wrote:Perhaps in the debate generally but not (I don't think, unless I slippery slipped up myself) from myself. What will inevitably result from Brexit is uncertainty – uncertainty we could well do without, a gamble for (as you say) the airy utopian dreams of the petit bourgeoisie. In this debate, give me the Big Bourgeoisie (and the labour movement) anyday.Actually, the capitalists financing the Leave campaign are not "petty bourgeois" but mainly filthy rich financiers who don't want their activities to be regulated by the EU. They are regulation dodgers. Workers would be complete mugs to pull the chestnuts out of the fire for them.
Thought you might enjoy this story from your ex comrade Dave:https://negcap.wordpress.com/2016/06/20/delivering-leaflets-for-dave/
Not bad as a blog. That's one of the problems to voting Remain: it also means voting for Cameron to remain as PM. We all know of course that the B in Brexit stands for bigot and the X for xenophobe so there's no problem in not voting for that.
Well, given the alternative, we want Cameron to remain as PM! Not all Brexiteers are bigots and xenophobia of course. But all bigots and xenophobia will be voting for Brexit. Reason enough to vote Remain!
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