“Burn a Flag” Campaign
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Oh…adulation of the Pope, so that would be what i suffer from ….been prostrate on my knees too long kissing the Holy Ring, have I ?My, oh, my, i have now got a better idea….let's not burn a flag…let's burn a heretic, instead !Lets out-do ISIS, after all who ever read Charlie Hebdo until the massacre…It'll certainly be a stunt…SPGB member burned at the stake for saying some nice things about the Pope…But to get me on the bonfire you have to catch me first…
twc wrote:It sends to that “more politically inclined”, and so already politically committed, section of the population the anarchist message: Abolish the national state! The national state is a necessary part of the social superstructure of capitalism. All the hating in the world won’t abolish the nation state before we capture it and change its social base from private to common ownership and control of the means of social life.Yeah and thats precisely why this would afford you the opportunity to explain in your press statements leaflets etc that the nation state is bound up with capitalism and can only be made to disappear with the elimination of capitalism itself. Your argument is akin to saying socialists shouldn't talk about abolishing poverty because poverty too is bound up with capitalism. You have to start where people are at – with their existing state of consciousness. Some people are vehemently opposed to nationalism without being necessarily socialists. Its up to socialists to help them to join up the dotted lines
twc wrote:Really? Do you imagine we have so little confidence in our science that we can’t foresee the consequences?I think our "science" should always be self critical, open minded and experimental in approach. We are not in the business of consulting crystal balls. We cannot really know apriori what the consequences of a publicity stunt like this may be
twc wrote:No, I don’t think, maybe or otherwise, that people might sit up and ask anything at all; they’ll already “know” all they need to “know”, because provocative stunts fuel little more than existing prejudice.No I don't think so. Here, I can only speculate but, for the nationalistically inclined, I think the shock of an incident that calls into question ALL nationalisms could, if anything, be disconcerting and disorientating, causing the person to rethink his or her position. I say this because I think the logic of nationalism grounds itself and sustains itself within a conceptual framework within which all other nations are viewed in fundamentally antagonistic terms – as "The Other". I don't want to get into a long winded sociological treatise on the ontology of nationalism but I think at a fundamental level nationalism sees difference as an existential threat to itself – different cultures , different people, different ways of living. Louis Dumont had something interesting to say about this and talked of the connection between nationalism and individualism. In individualist mythology, the individual is pre-social or "natural" – which, incidentally, is why capitalism relies so heavily on the "human natrure" argument. We are said to be "formed in nature". Remember Hobbes and Locke and all that nonsense about the Social Contract? Well, "the Nation" is the Individual writ large in nationalist ontology. Consequently, differences between individuals must therefore signify the influence of society upon the individual which, in turn, represents a threat to the sovereign autonomy of the individual. Which is why "other nations", being other Individuals writ large, are perceived as being in some deep sense a threat to the thoroughgoing nationalist.. It ties in with individualistic basis of modern nationalism Anyway, to cut a long story short, I think the only way you are going to break through this nationalist-cum-individualist thinking is to fundamentally attack its basic premiss through the deployment of shock and awe tactics, so to speak. How else are you going to shift those "existing prejudices" you speak of? It is precisely because they are prejudices – pre-judgments – that the mere presentation of the "scientific case for socialism" is just not gonna work, TWC – or at least not to any significant extent. This bears it my long standing critique to the traditional SPGB approach to doing things – its hyper rationalism. Rationality is a very good thing and I'm not knocking it, but it needs to be complemented by other ways of doing things that engage the more irrational side of human beings and tap into the enormous power of symbolism. And we all have an irrational or emotional side to us. You too TWC
Your (Robbo, that is) long well-argued postings are a good example of the rationalist approach of trying to convince people by argument Keep it up.
Well, rationalism definitely flies out the window for anyone who tries to comprehend the hidden rationality of your stunt.So, here goes…You pre-announce yourself to the public as an anti-anarchist, who is about to throw a stunt that, appearances to the contrary, only temporarily resorts to promoting the anarchist case, for political expediency, in order to shock the public into supporting an anti-anarchist case.My only rational understanding is that your vivid creativity has overcome rational qualms over trashing the Party’s unblemished intellectual integrity.
TWC,it was meant to lighten the exchange which is between comrades and not enemies.But when i posted it i also remembered what i said about a picture being worth a thousand words. Our propaganda is severely restricted to wordy articles…and of course that gets us involved in disputes about meanings and interpretations of terms. Half our battle is correcting what people think we mean. We have used pictures and cartoons and music rather sparingly in all our propaganda and usually second hand rather than original made for purpose. Obviously one reason is the shortage of talent. But a song lyric might not express 100% our case…or a graphic only concentrate one element of it, but when used frequently they build up to give the party case in its entirety. (the exceptions is the weekly poem on our SOYMB blog and the consistent Free Lunch strip)So often we talk about what we could do if we had the capability…put on Zinn's Marx in Soho…excerpts from the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists…put out union song CDs …oh, whatever…the range is limitless on what we could do but can't do. This causes some frustration when some members do see something that is possible even with our restricted resources…and right now its not cash but people we lack. But if we can't get a message over , we can't get the members …a vicious circle…and we all should be trying to think out the box…because as i have said…what we did in the past is not applicable today…the old ways are gone…we need new approaches, exciting methods…tub thumping oratory can no longer be practiced…we have to drum up an audience by other means. We have never ever asked people how they would like their information delivered to them but that is the first thing any media tries to determine. Is it a copy of the Standard or a You Tube video but neither is a solution unless someone reads it or views it ….and we don't possess a presence..thats the horrible fact. We can occasionally cite some fellow eccentric who has heard of us but truthfully , no-body has really…certainly not heard or read the case…i know some say they have had the opportunity…as i have when i drive past a billboard on the motorway and take no notice of the content….but if i keep driving..everyday…the sublimal impact takes place….i begin to associate mentally with the billboard image and message…but it has to be there everyday for me to see to have that effect.i'm willing to try many things that might fail…one reason is that i don't have an over-blown sense of importance of the party…i said somewhere…if it was to disappear…who would actually miss it …and our marxism materialism says it may have a small influence on the bigger picture but not a determining one …the world goes on without the SPGB…as it does when we all pass on to the Great Socialist Party in the Sky. …Central Branch of the Clouds…Anyways…enough talk for tonight…already tired from the libcom exchanges i been having
ALB wrote:Your (Robbo, that is) long well-argued postings are a good example of the rationalist approach of trying to convince people by argument Keep it up.Hi Adam. Well yes- there is nothing wrong with the rationalist approach. Im all for it but I do think it needs to be complemented at times with another approach. These things are not mutually exclusive – and thats me thinking with my rationalist hat on!
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