Anti-Zionism is not anti-semitic

[Anonymous]

alanjjohnstone wrote:

i think the Party still has some members from a Jewish background, so it would be interesting to have their input. 

That is the same argumentation against Marx made by the Nazis,  claiming that Communism is a Jewis conspiracy. He was not a Jews, he was an ahteist and a socialist, even more, his family were not Jews they were Christians. Because his father was a Rabbi it doesn't mean that he was a Jew. Bill Gates is an atheist and most peoples  considered him as a Jew. The world is not controlled by the Jew and Israel doesnt control the USA, it is the opppsite way, the world is controlled by the capitalist market. The world capitalist class is composed of individuals from different nations including the poorest one

[Anonymous]

ALB wrote:

alanjjohnstone wrote:

what i have learned of the Jewish Bund and Yiddish, certainly opened my eyes to a whole new aspect of Jewish history that is rarely revealed

Steve Coleman once explained that there are two Jewish traditions, one based on Hebrew (a revived religious language) and Yiddish (a European language, written in Hebrew letters), with the first tending to be religious and the second tending to be secular. Naturally, all the Jewish people who have joined the Party over the years have been from the Yiddish tradition. Mind you, this didn't stop Steve being berated once in Hyde Park for being a Cohen (apparently a priesly caste in Judaism) who couldn't speak Hebrew.  

It has been discovered that there was a language older than Aramean language, and it was the first language used to write the Bible by the Masoretic, and it began in Babylon. The Rosacrucians claim that the first writers were polytheists. The expression Hebrew is not mentioned in the Bible, and the language spoken in Israel is a modern language which has many European influences. The original Israelites were blacks

[Anonymous]

Here is where all the problems and confussions comes from:https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/who-are-the-semites/don't  have languistics origin, they are not a race or ethnics groups. One of the most racist book is the Bible ( or the book of Genesis )     PS:  II has been discovered that the Spanish language ( or the Romances or Latin language, French, Italian  )  doesnt come from the Latin Language, it comes from a language spoken by the Italian peasantshttps://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Le_français_ne_vient_pas_du_latin

[Darren redstar]

I think we must distinguish between AntiZionism and opposition to the actions of the Israeli State.all socialists would oppose the murderous, racist and discriminatory policies of Israel but this should not be understood as support for the ideology of AntiZionism. AntiZionism is a procapitalist, nationalist ideology that denies the validity of one state (Israel) and advocates its destruction, but accepts and supports the existence of all other states ( and indeed wishes to replace the Israeli state with a capitalist Palestinian one).as the ideological foundation of Israel is as ‘The Jewish State’ then anti Zionism explicitly denies that the Jewish People are allowed a state of their own ( for socialists who reject the idea of all states this is unremarkable, but anti Zionism is a part of the ideology of the left and inextricably tied to the concept of rights of nations to self determination and the support of nationalisms) It is the refusal of the anti zionists to acknowledge the right of a Jewish State to exist, whilst supporting all other states that gives support to the allegation of anti Semitism ( and allows anti semites to operate within the anti Zionist organisations).

[robbo203]

Darren redstar wrote:

I think we must distinguish between AntiZionism and opposition to the actions of the Israeli State.all socialists would oppose the murderous, racist and discriminatory policies of Israel but this should not be understood as support for the ideology of AntiZionism. AntiZionism is a procapitalist, nationalist ideology that denies the validity of one state (Israel) and advocates its destruction, but accepts and supports the existence of all other states ( and indeed wishes to replace the Israeli state with a capitalist Palestinian one).as the ideological foundation of Israel is as ‘The Jewish State’ then anti Zionism explicitly denies that the Jewish People are allowed a state of their own ( for socialists who reject the idea of all states this is unremarkable, but anti Zionism is a part of the ideology of the left and inextricably tied to the concept of rights of nations to self determination and the support of nationalisms) It is the refusal of the anti zionists to acknowledge the right of a Jewish State to exist, whilst supporting all other states that gives support to the allegation of anti Semitism ( and allows anti semites to operate within the anti Zionist organisations).

 Its a good point you raise, Darren.   Anti-Zionism can indeed be a vehicle for anti-semitic ideas.  But then again we socialists oppose Zionism – do we not? –  just as we oppose all other forms of nationalism (which is what Zionism essentially is).    So unlike some on the Left , we are surely both antizionist and against  antisemitism and regard nationalism  and racism as ideological expressions that serve the interests of capital by dividing the working class in order to more effectively rule over it

[Darren redstar]

Robbo I think my argument is similar to our position toward anti fascism. As socialists we oppose all forms of capitalist rule and of course oppose fascism which is a form of capitalist class rule, but are also opposed to the ideology of anti fascism which sees fascism as uniquely horrorific and defends and alibis other forms of capitalist rule as preferable.

[robbo203]

Darren redstar wrote:

Robbo I think my argument is similar to our position toward anti fascism. As socialists we oppose all forms of capitalist rule and of course oppose fascism which is a form of capitalist class rule, but are also opposed to the ideology of anti fascism which sees fascism as uniquely horrorific and defends and alibis other forms of capitalist rule as preferable.

 Yes I understand and agree with the point you are making.  My only slight quibble (which is more semantic than anything else) is that we are still nevertheless opposed to fascism and are therefore "anti fascist" even if we dont share much common ground with many anti-fascists (who are basically pro-capitalist in the main).  Ditto the argument about Zionism and Anti-Semitism.   The Socialist position is probably quite unique in that we are able to vigorously oppose the nationalist nonsense that is Zionism without ever making ourselves vulnerable to the accusation that we are  somehow courting anti-semitic ideas.   This is becuase we oppose all nationalism.  Period.  It is the capitalist Left who favour Palestinian nationalism who find themselves in a weak position  when they try to answer the charge that they are anti-semtic by denying the right of Jews to have their own nation-state while asserting the right of Palestinians to have theirs (although to be fair I suspect most of them opt for a two state solution, not the elimination of Israel per se) That is indeed a case of double standards but it is not an accusation that can remotely be levelled against socialists.  We are not in the least interested in promoting any kind of nation state let alone apologising for one

[alanjjohnstone]

Israel and Palestine together are no bigger than greater Los Angeles nearly half of Israeli Jews say they will not live in the same building as an Arab. 96% of Israeli Jews wanted a “democratic” state and 85% wanted it “Jewish”. Yet where democratic freedom and Jewish law clashed, only 54% said they would protect democratic freedoms. By 2015, a Pew study found that 48% of all Israeli Jews agree with the statement: “Arabs should be expelled or transferred from Israel”. Some 42% of Israelis, the so-called centre, say, not without humility, that all they want is for Israel to have a “Jewish majority”.  Israel’s strongly Orthodox Jews – both National Religious and Haredi – have increased from about 10% to at least a third of the Jewish population. Arnon Soffer argues that Israel will be a majority Orthodox state by 2030. Thirty years ago, about 70% of Israeli students attended the secular stream. Today, just 39% do. assassin, Yigal Amir, pardoned.Jerusalem is ground zero of an emerging Orthodox alliance: more than 45% of schoolchildren in Greater Jerusalem are now Haredi, a number often linked to the estimated 200,000 mainly secular Jews who have left the city for the coastal plain over the past generation. In Jerusalem, about 30% of schoolchildren are Arab, while about 13% are National Religious. That leaves about 12% in secular schools, which Haredi activists may harass and take over when their neighbourhoods outgrow their own. Thirty-four percent of Israelis say that Arab culture is inferior to Israeli culture. About a third of Israeli Jews would have Yitzhak Rabin’s assassin, Yigal Amir, pardoned.More than 70% of Israeli Arabs say they would prefer to live in Israel than a Palestinian state. The vast majority of Israeli Arabs are now third-generation Israelis. Many have assimilated. Their resentment is toward a pervasive legal structure that discriminates in favour of Jews. The Greater Israel confederation advocated by Israeli Arabs may well be the only way to make two states work.https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/20/the-fight-to-define-the-very-essence-of-israel

[alanjjohnstone]

Livingstone resigns from the Labour Partyhttp://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-44196298Livingstone showed that the truth hurts 

Quote:

I also recognise that the way I made a historical argument has caused offence and upset in the Jewish community. I am truly sorry for that.

But it doesn't placate the critics

Quote:

Campaign Against Antisemitsm said Mr Corbyn's decision to describe Mr Livingstone's resignation as "sad" had merely "rubbed salt into the wound".The group called for Mr Corbyn to apologise and added: "The Labour Party's anti-Semitism problem seems to be growing, not receding."

I have always held the theory that the late Robin Cook was removed from his Foreign Secretary job because of Israel's dislike for his positions. For example.https://www.independent.co.uk/news/cook-fights-a-war-of-words-over-har-homa-1150922.html

[Anonymous]

alanjjohnstone wrote:

Israel and Palestine together are no bigger than greater Los Angeles nearly half of Israeli Jews say they will not live in the same building as an Arab. 96% of Israeli Jews wanted a “democratic” state and 85% wanted it “Jewish”. Yet where democratic freedom and Jewish law clashed, only 54% said they would protect democratic freedoms. By 2015, a Pew study found that 48% of all Israeli Jews agree with the statement: “Arabs should be expelled or transferred from Israel”. Some 42% of Israelis, the so-called centre, say, not without humility, that all they want is for Israel to have a “Jewish majority”.  Israel’s strongly Orthodox Jews – both National Religious and Haredi – have increased from about 10% to at least a third of the Jewish population. Arnon Soffer argues that Israel will be a majority Orthodox state by 2030. Thirty years ago, about 70% of Israeli students attended the secular stream. Today, just 39% do. assassin, Yigal Amir, pardoned.Jerusalem is ground zero of an emerging Orthodox alliance: more than 45% of schoolchildren in Greater Jerusalem are now Haredi, a number often linked to the estimated 200,000 mainly secular Jews who have left the city for the coastal plain over the past generation. In Jerusalem, about 30% of schoolchildren are Arab, while about 13% are National Religious. That leaves about 12% in secular schools, which Haredi activists may harass and take over when their neighbourhoods outgrow their own. Thirty-four percent of Israelis say that Arab culture is inferior to Israeli culture. About a third of Israeli Jews would have Yitzhak Rabin’s assassin, Yigal Amir, pardoned.More than 70% of Israeli Arabs say they would prefer to live in Israel than a Palestinian state. The vast majority of Israeli Arabs are now third-generation Israelis. Many have assimilated. Their resentment is toward a pervasive legal structure that discriminates in favour of Jews. The Greater Israel confederation advocated by Israeli Arabs may well be the only way to make two states work.https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/20/the-fight-to-define-the-very-essence-of-israel

The German Nazis also said that the Jews are inferiors, and they were Europeans, so, what is the difference between their point of view? The Puritans and the Catholics invaders in the Americas said that the culture of the Indians was inferior.  They are white supremacists, therefore, we can conclude that the slaves in Egypt were white with blue and green eyes, and Moses was a white man who took them to the promised land, right here, we can see the absurdity of those so-called holy books.There are many blacks  Israelite in Israel that are going to be deported by the government of Israel

[alanjjohnstone]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOXs0stI4HcWhile Netanyahu and Israeli nationalists were happy to go out in the streets and wave their flags to celebrate the Eurovision win, making a parody out of the Japanese,https://www.independent.co.uk/I recall the liberals defending Charles Hebdo justified their humour about IslamBut when others take the piss out of Netta and Israel, then it is anti-semitismhttp://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44214279Anti-Israel lyrics V. anti-semitic lyrics? Judge for yourself… 

[alanjjohnstone]

As PS to the aboveThe US-made F-35 stealth fighter has seen its first ever combat action, flying in an operation for the Israeli air force.Maj Gen Amikam Norkin told heads of 20 foreign air forces meeting in Israel: "You know that we just won the Eurovision with the song 'Toy.' Well, the F-35 is not a toy," he said.The US has given Israel more military aid than any other country in the world – currently around $4bn a year – and its laws on arms sales require that Israel always maintains military superiority in the Middle East.http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-44210403

[alanjjohnstone]

Luckily people on this forum know i can often post obsessively on a particular topic so the number of times i  add to this thread should not be a surprise or taken as some sort of vendetta or crusade.Jonathan Cook, i think, express the opinion that Israel is the little boy who shouted fire far too often but also that we are still running to the emergency exitshttps://dissidentvoice.org/2018/05/anti-semitism-israels-get-out-of-jail-free-card/#more-80291

Quote:

The silencing of critics of Israel using anti-semitism as the pretext is far from restricted to the current wave of attacks on Jeremy Corbyn and his Labour party. It is now used to intimidate anyone who steps out of line on Israel. Once we raged against the conflation of anti-semitism and anti-Zionism. We have so lost that battle that it is now standard operating procedure for Israel’s apologists to conflate anti-semitism with simple criticisms of the current ultra-nationalist Israeli government… what cartoonist is going to dare to deploy their satirical skills against Israel when the response is invariably going to lead to their being accused of anti-semitism and possibly losing their career and their reputation? That is precisely what weaponising anti-semitism means. It hands Israel a get-out-of-jail-free card. It intimidates opinion formers – journalists, cartoonists, comedians, politicians, civil society leaders, human rights activists – by making the issue of Israel so toxic that none dare touch it. One need only look to the BBC to see the result: a mix of anaemic fence-sitting and outright censorship when covering Israel.

[alanjjohnstone]

This could very easily be on the other Israel V. Iran thread or the Gaza onehttp://www.dw.com/en/oren-no-soldier-fires-at-will-on-gaza-border/a-43919924Michael Oren.

Quote:

Responding to Tim Sebastian's suggestion that Oren might want to attack Iran, the deputy minister and former Israeli ambassador to the US said, "We didn't come … to this country to let your garden-variety anti-Semites destroy us … We are going to defend our border in the south. We are going to defend ourselves against Iran. We are going to pursue our interests. That's why we're here. That's why we have a sovereign Jewish state."

That Iran certainly is not officially anti-semitic can be read here although like many other nations including its allies, Israel's policies no doubt provoke anti-semitic attitudeshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_JewsIran's Jewish community is officially recognized as a religious minority group by the government, and, like the Zoroastrians and Christians, they are allocated one seat in the Iranian Parliament. Iranian Jews have their own newspaper (called "Ofogh-e-Bina") with Jewish scholars performing Judaic research at Tehran's "Central Library of Jewish Association". The "Dr. Sapir Jewish Hospital" is Iran's largest charity hospital of any religious minority community in the country. The Iranian government has allowed Jewish Iranians to visit their family members in Israel and that the government has also allowed those Iranians living in Israel to return to Iran for a visit. There are 25 synagogues in Iran. Tehran has 11 functioning synagogues, many of them with Hebrew schools. It has two kosher restaurants, an old-age home and a cemetery. There is a Jewish library with 20,000 titles…. 

[Anonymous]

alanjjohnstone wrote:

This could very easily be on the other Israel V. Iran thread or the Gaza onehttp://www.dw.com/en/oren-no-soldier-fires-at-will-on-gaza-border/a-43919924Michael Oren.

Quote:

Responding to Tim Sebastian's suggestion that Oren might want to attack Iran, the deputy minister and former Israeli ambassador to the US said, "We didn't come … to this country to let your garden-variety anti-Semites destroy us … We are going to defend our border in the south. We are going to defend ourselves against Iran. We are going to pursue our interests. That's why we're here. That's why we have a sovereign Jewish state."

That Iran certainly is not officially anti-semitic can be read here although like many other nations including its allies, Israel's policies no doubt provoke anti-semitic attitudeshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_JewsIran's Jewish community is officially recognized as a religious minority group by the government, and, like the Zoroastrians and Christians, they are allocated one seat in the Iranian Parliament. Iranian Jews have their own newspaper (called "Ofogh-e-Bina") with Jewish scholars performing Judaic research at Tehran's "Central Library of Jewish Association". The "Dr. Sapir Jewish Hospital" is Iran's largest charity hospital of any religious minority community in the country. The Iranian government has allowed Jewish Iranians to visit their family members in Israel and that the government has also allowed those Iranians living in Israel to return to Iran for a visit. There are 25 synagogues in Iran. Tehran has 11 functioning synagogues, many of them with Hebrew schools. It has two kosher restaurants, an old-age home and a cemetery. There is a Jewish library with 20,000 titles…. 

In Iraq the Christians were part of the parliament. The closer collaborator was Saddam Hussein was catholic.  

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