Anti-Zionism is not anti-semitic
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The battle of Aleppo was more destructive than the actual battle in Gaza and the killing of civilians was performed by a group that the left-wingers are supporting now along with a leader that they also support too which is the government of syria and also that government is actually being supported by the Russian capitalists and also Russia like the other parts involved in the conflicts are looking for economic gains and commercial and marine routes
More than 35,000 human beings died in that battle of Allepo
Hamas and the Arabs capitalists also wanted to take the natural resources of Gaza, the capitalists form Israel are not the only one. Syria has more natural resources than Gaza .
They use the expression zionists instead of using the expression Jews because their allegation is that jews are greedy and the other capitalists are not greedy, all capitalists from all nations,( European, Latinamerican, African, Asian, American natives, Australian, etc ) races, ethnic, etc want to produce and obtain profits from the sweat of the working and all want to grab the natural resources of the earth
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Aleppo_(2012–2016)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BG_Group. B G Groups made the exploration and they were going to make an exploration and extraction agreement with Israel and Palestine leaders, this is not new, and the Israel capitalists are not the only one that new about that exploration in Gaza.
PS: As YMS indicated in another message, thousands of children die every day due to hunger, malnutrition, wars, and nobody mention that phenomenon and that genocide is produced by capitalism all over the world, and thousands of children are employed in very dangerous job and many die perform that type of job including the cutting of sugar cane using machetes, an some of those corporations belong to USA, European and Chinese capitalists
Zionism is not Fascism, it is Israeli nationalism like any other type of nationalism, including the Christian American nationalism, African nationalism, and Latin American nationalism, etc, etc, the real world phenomenon is capitalism, and fascism does not exist, those are distortions propagated by Stalinists and Trotskyist groups who see Fascists all over the earth and they do not know the real meaning of fascism, and they are also propagated by conspiracists, they are trying to equate this conflict with the German nazis which is also a false analysis
Nazism/Fascism was a form adopted by German and Italian capitalism during a particular situation between two world wars, and that particular situation does not any exist anymore, and Nazism worked pretty well for the german capitalists ( as well, state capitalism ) in our time the capitalists do not need fascism when they have the support of millions of workers to obtain power and approval, and most workers around the world are supporting capitalism and right wingers candidates, the main characteristic of Fascism/Nazism is not war and racism,or the so called ethnic cleansing, it has been done by the so called anti fascists nations,
Stalinism, trotskyism and social democrats continue singing the same song and the same lyric, they are still living in the past, but they support one element of fascism, and third world dictators
The Palestinians are claiming a big territory too and that territory include the destruction of Israel, and Palestine is only a subdivision of the Ottoman Empire, the only way for that objective to take place would be thru a regional war which must produce a big genocide in that region, and might produce the intervention of more powerful military forces, probably Allah, and Jehovah might need powerful armies to do that, a so called holly book will not resolve those problems
This is not a religious war, this is an economic war like all other wars based on the economic interests of the capitalist class, and there are natural resources that both capitalist groups want to keep and use to produce profits, a Rabbi can say whatever he wants but it does not mean anything because everything that is written in the Bible is false, and Noah, Abrams and Moses did not exist, as well, the Exodus did not take place either, those are mythology.
Semitic is not a race,( the sons of Noah, and Abrams did not exist either ) they are languages like the Aryans, in the same manner that Latinos are Romance languages, it is not a race or an ethnic group
Some religious groups have claimed that Adan spoke Arameus and it has been discovered that there was a language older than Arameus part of the semitic language, but science has proven that it took thousands of years for human beings to create a language and we did not have the vocals cords to produce the proper sounds, even more, Engels wrote about that too
The Palestinian and the Arabs also claim that they are the chosen peoples, as well the Pan Africans muslims claim that they are the chosen peoples too, and that the real peoples chosen by god are the Africans, it is one of the claim of the Nation of Islam, according to their narrative they came from Ishmael which was one of the son of Abrams and they claim that the promise was given to him ( the Rosicrucian claimed that salvation was going to come thru the Egyptians ) . Each group has their own land claim, and the reality is that the earth does not belong to anybody, and humans do not come from Abrams, or Noah, the scientific reality has proven that mankind started in Africa, and there was a mixing in the process of development including the discovery of the man of peking
According to the mythology of the Bible Jehovah told Moses: You are stepping on sacred land,( Sinai Mount ) and that land was Egypt, and they never left that land as the supporter of the Exodus claim, even more, they did not cross the river, the anthropologists of the University of Tel-Avis have proven that the exodus never took place.
The left-wingers can claim whatever they war, and they can claim all kind of racists theories, but this is a war between capitalists, it is not a war between Jews ( a religion ) and muslims ( another religion ) they lived together for 900 years in peace and harmony without any military confrontations
The doctrine of discovery claim a bigger territory which says that the whole earth belong to the European Christians powers, and that they are the real chosen peoples of god, and that concept was created by the Vatican, and that papal bull gives the authority to the European powers that are christians to take any territory, any natural resources at all cost and the destruction of all peoples, and cultures from other lands, and that concept was used in order to conquer the Americas, Africa, Asia and Australia, the USA is still using that proclamation, and it was created before fascism and nazism and before the creation of nation-state, this will ready shade all the other claims
The Doctrine of Discovery, Manifest Destiny, and American Exceptionalism
PS Alan Johnstone wrote a very good article about the USA expansion which is part of the doctrine of discovery and millions of peoples were killed and it also produced the expansion of the USA toward the South and the West and the expansion of the 13 colonies.
I think we need to be very careful of suggesting that someone posting here is being anti-Semitic, when they are actually being anti-Zionist.
From the Wikipedia entry on the Home Secretary:
“She married Rael Braverman, a manager of the Mercedes-Benz Group, whom Braverman described as a “very proud member of the Jewish community”, in February 2018 at the House of Commons. Rael Braverman lived in Israel, and Suella Braverman told The Jewish Chronicle that she has “close family members who serve in the IDF”.
So she has relatives who serve in the Israeli killing machine. That no doubt explains her wish to ban pro-Palestine demonstrations but isn’t there some rule that you have to declare an interest if you are personally involved in something you have to take a decision on? In any event, the police are not taking notice of her ravings.
I think we need to be very careful of suggesting that someone posting here is being anti-Semitic, when they are actually being anti-Zionist.
————————————————————-I do not think that anybody here has indicated that.
Anti Zionism is not enough when other types of nationalism are supported, it is like anti imperialism which is not anti capitalism
This is the main concern of the left, but they have not studied deeply Lenin concept of Imperialism which is pure bourgeois nationalism, he was another theoretician of nationalism like any other nationalist
That passage from Antonio Domene about “Knowing the Zionists’ greed for power and money” seems rather anti-semitic. Why single out the Jewish nationalists (Zionists) for this when it applies to all capitalist states? It sounds as if he means “knowing the Jews’ greed for power and money”. Which is definitely anti-semitic.
Definitely not acceptable language here. But it does put the party case succinctly, that wars (obviously not a full on all out war in this instant) are fought over natural resources, trade routes including water tributaries, land and people. Even if the author would probably not call himself ‘class conscious’? This is the first time l have read about what appears to be a sizable potental economic opportunities in the region.
Despite the unacceptable way in which he put it, he may have had a point about there being an economic rresources aspect. There have been some links on this thread about the gas field in that part of the Mediterranean as well as about pipelines from the Gulf passing through Israel instead of Syria and Lenanon.
BG gas exploration in Gaza. 23 years old project
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How a Gaza Marine Deal Could Benefit Palestinians, Israelis and the Region
Rare progress on a 23-year-old project shows that energy is increasingly becoming a focus for potential win-win agreements in the East Mediterranean.
The discussion about the existence of Gas in Gaza is a very old topic, and now some pro Hamas supporters want to present as new issue, both sides have known that there is gas in that region and both sides have tried to make agreements to obtain profits to benefits its own ruling class
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The USA and several oil company know about the existence of petroleum and gas in Haiti and the Caribbean basis but the USA wants to keep it for an eventuality, by the meantime they are making secret negotiation with theVenezuelan government and some restrictions are going to be lifted upI went to a local meeting of the Stop the War group yesterday and bought a copy of “Socialist Appeal” to add to my collection of Trotskiana. It’s a throwback to the 1960s and 1970s — capitalism is on the brink, we must do something urgently, build a vanguard party, etc, etc.
On Gaza and Palestine they are calling for a popular uprising to overthrow the Israeli government and state which they hope will spread to other Arab states and lead to a “Socialist Federation of the Middle East” (which Trotsky probably mentioned in 1938).
The only interesting thing in it was this about Starmer:
“The only difference between him and Sunak is that he doesn’t have the keys to the war room just yet.”
Not bad. I think we can plagiarise that.
The Trotskyists movement is so distorted and anti-Marxists that they asked the workers to support Hussein during the Iraq War because he was an anti imperialist. Now they are asking for a Middle East intifada which is war and workers must kill each others.
https://socialist.net/intifada-until-victory-for-a-socialist-federation-of-the-middle-east/
https://www.marxists.org/history/etol/document/mideast/fi.html.
Trotskyists on the Middle East. Putting more logs in the fire for the so called national liberation. The only difference between the Third International and the Fourth International are the founders, but in essence both were the same type of organizations
Good for you ALB for taking the time to go to a Stop the War meeting and trying to engage. Personally I don’t have the time – time being my most valuable commodity- to engage with the left wing. The left persists in its belief that if we join a demonstration it will achieve something. That said however, it would warm my heart if the whole world joined a demonstration against war. And signed the papers that said “We’ll never fight again”.
Even the police are less belligerent than the Home Secretary. Cruella Braverman is denouncing the anti-Gaza demonstrations, especially the one planned for Saturday, as a “hate march”. To which the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, Sir Mark Rowley, replies:
“‘I wouldn’t use one phrase to characterise 100,000 people,’ adding that many of those attending were pacifists who had a right to protest against Israel’s mass bombing of Gaza” (Times, 8 November).
This will be a fair assessment. The organisers and many on the demonstration will be pro-Palestine but others perhaps most will simply be protesting at the massacre of ordinary people in Gaza.
Actually, it is Braverman herself who is more probably motivated by hate. Here is what she told the Jewish Chronicle earlier this year:
“Part of the reason for her anger is that her husband, Rael, is Jewish. “The Jewish community is our community,” she said. “My husband is a proud Jew and Zionist.
“He’s lived in Israel. We have close family members who serve in the IDF. My children will be raised with a strong sense of Jewish values and their Jewish heritage. We enjoy Friday night dinners at our mother-in-law’s.
“I love Jewish culture and I have very much loved learning and embracing the Jewish way of life, and our children being raised with a very strong connection to it.” (https://www.thejc.com/news/politics/police-must-understand-that-jews-do-count-says-braverman-4Q7armNPfrgXcW2P2VIv65)This is not just taking sides with Israel for geopolitical reasons (counterweight to Iran to stop it gaining control of the Gulf, etc) which is the official government and Labour position. It’s an emotional commitment to the Zionist project. She clearly hates pro-Palestinians and is trying to use her position to further the cause of the Jewish nationalists who control the Israeli government by banning pro-Palestine demonstrations.
This must be unprecedented in British political history — a Cabinet minister acting as an agent of a “foreign” power. But of course that’s their problem not ours.
This must be unprecedented in British political history — a Cabinet minister acting as an agent of a “foreign” power”
Not really unprecedented, Thatcher/Major Blair was the US’s lap dog in the 2 Gulf wars, Attlee was happy to send Troops in to support the US’s interests in Korea, to cite just a few.
Remembrance Day hypocrisy. Will they be remembering the time when the Jewish Nationalists were terrorists killing British soldiers and hostages:
“The Sergeants affair was an incident that took place in Mandate Palestine in July 1947 during Jewish insurgency in Palestine, in which the Jewish underground group Irgun kidnapped two British Army Intelligence Corps NCOs, Sergeant Clifford Martin and Sergeant Mervyn Paice, and threatened to hang them if the death sentences passed on three Irgun militants—Avshalom Haviv, Meir Nakar, and Yaakov Weiss—were carried out. The three had been captured by the British during the Acre Prison break, tried, and convicted on charges of illegal possession of arms, and with ‘intent to kill or cause other harm to a large number of people’. When the three men were executed by hanging, the Irgun killed the two sergeants and hung their booby-trapped bodies in a eucalyptus grove near Netanya.
When the bodies were found, the booby trap injured a British officer as they were cut down. This act was widely condemned in both Palestine and the UK. After news of the deaths became widely known, some British troops and policemen went on rampages in Tel Aviv; five were killed and others wounded by the police, while anti-Jewish rioting broke out in some British cities.”https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sergeants_affair
More on the “Jewish Insurgency” here:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_insurgency_in_Mandatory_Palestine
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