Andrew Kliman speaking in the UK
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Our position only came up when at one point he said that "democracy" was not enough because the same "laws" would still apply even if a majority voted for something. He meant this as a criticism of those who favour workers democracy while retaining the market system, so the "laws" he was talking about were economic ones. But members misunderstood him as saying that you couldn't get socialism through democracy and voting because "political" laws wouldn't allow it. Anyway, this provided a chance for us to present our view. Wait till you can hear the recording. His general view on contesting elections is given in his answer to the last question here:http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/socialist-standard/2010s/2014/no-1316-april-2014/relevance-marxian-economics-todayOf course he didn't buy a round. He was our guest !
ALB wrote:He spoke for an hour mostly on, as we had asked, why underconsumption theories of capitalism and capitalist crises (and how to get out of them) are wrong. He did say explicitly that, as there was no economic tendency for capitalism to collapse economically, it could in theory continue for ever though he hastened to add that that didn't mean that it would. This follows from what we say too, though of course it's not what many critics of capitalism like to hear and makes us appear to being saying that capitalism is not as bad, or flawed, as they say (nor is it a good motivator for people to engage in urgent socialist activity).He also developed his argument that the oft-repeated view (sometimes by some of us) that real wages in the US have been stagnant since 1970 is a myth. According to him and the statistical evidence he has marshalled, labour costs in the US have gone up ( I think he said, but am not sure, more or less in line with labour productivity there). This was challenged by a non-member in the audience. Personally I think Kliman is right: just like here living standards in the US will have gone up not stagnated since 1970 (even if "labour costs", which include employer contributions to pensions, health care, etc for workers as well as taxes they deduct from wages, are not the same as "take-home" pay). I suppose that accepting this is once again seen as undermining the case for socialism, but I don't see why, though it might be one explanation why most workers are prepared to put up with capitalism. Anyway, Kliman took our view that you have to keep raising the issue of an alternative society (without wages, money, finance, value, etc) as the way-out for the working class and not get bogged down in defensive struggles to survive under capitalism or imagine that these by themselves will lead to an understanding of the need for an alternative society.The issue of how precisely the long-run tendency of the rate of profit to fall is linked to the capitalist boom/slump cycle, another of Kliman's theories, did not come up. A pamphlet of his he had for sale at the meeting (a debate with David Harvey) suggests that he doesn't think that there is any direct link, only an indirect one by making overproduction and/or financial crises more likely. But then, of course, there are other reasons for these (not that he would deny this either) ….All these so called Marxist-Humanists they are ambivalents
alanjjohnstone wrote:Seemed a very worthwhile talk and i look forward to it going online.Did anybody press a Form A into his hand before he left?What was his opinion of ourselves as socialist party?In the beer garden, did he explain where he disagreed and agreed with us on other issues of establishing socialism such as Parliament? Did he or any members think it worthwhile to explore and develop further and future links with the socialist humanist group he is involved with? Did he buy a round?I do not think that anyone of those so called American Marxists intellectual will join the socialist party. They follow the same path of Noam Chomsky
mcolome1 wrote:alanjjohnstone wrote:Seemed a very worthwhile talk and i look forward to it going online.Did anybody press a Form A into his hand before he left?What was his opinion of ourselves as socialist party?In the beer garden, did he explain where he disagreed and agreed with us on other issues of establishing socialism such as Parliament? Did he or any members think it worthwhile to explore and develop further and future links with the socialist humanist group he is involved with? Did he buy a round?I do not think that anyone of those so called American Marxists intellectual will join the socialist party. They follow the same path of Noam Chomsky
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if he's living in America, he wouldn't be allowed to join the SPGB anyway.
The audio recording of this talk is now online here athttp://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/audio/failure-capitalist-production-political-implications-great-recession
Could someone post the details of the flyer that advertises the online video lecture course by Andrew Kliman on capital and marx that is referred to at the meeting
#21 “Could someone post the details of the flyer that advertises the online video lecture course by Andrew Kliman on capital and marx that is referred to at the meeting”Here’s some info at the Marxist-Humanist Initiative website -http://www.marxisthumanistinitiative.org/alternatives-to-capital/livestream-course-on-marxs-capital.html
pfbcarlisle wrote:#21 "Could someone post the details of the flyer that advertises the online video lecture course by Andrew Kliman on capital and Marx that is referred to at the meeting"Here's some info at the Marxist-Humanist Initiative website -http://www.marxisthumanistinitiative.org/alternatives-to-capital/livestream-course-on-marxs-capital.htmlThere are three Marxist Humanists tendencies, or three separate organizations at the present time, ( Conducted by Olga, Peter, and Andrew ) and each one of them has published their own point of view on Marx's Capital, and Peter Hudis which is one of the oldest member of the movement, and who was personal secretary of Raya Dunayeskaya, and National Organizer of News and Letters, has published several articles on the same subject matter. and he has also published a book named: The alternative to capitalism. I think the Socialist Party should also extend an invitation to Peter Hudis to give a speech about Marx's capital. He has also made a recompilation of all the works of Rosa Luxembourg.There were was a factory workers named Isaac who knew pretty well everything about Marx's Capital, and they do not mentioned him too much, he wasn't an academic intellectual, but he knew about Marx, and Hegel like anyone of them, he described Marx's capital in a very simple manner able to be understood by any worker, it does show that workers are also able to understand Capital. He was a self educated Marxist, and he was also a Philosopher.Even that they rejected the so called vanguard party concept, academic intellectuals are the ones doing all the thinking. I believe that all workers can become intellectuals like Isaac was, he used to call himself a Hillbilly. Like him, I have met many workers including Tailors, Shoe shiners, Peasants, and construction workers
The video of Andrew Kliman’s talk is now available to watch on this site and also our youtube channel.The two-part film of this recent talk at H.O. is now on our website as follows – The Failure of Capitalist Production pt.1 The Failure of Capitalist Production pt.2Youtube via these links -Part 1Part 2
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