American election
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We are world socialists and it all depends on who you are. What if i was Libyan? Seeing your country destroyed and turned into a failed state when Biden was VP. What if you were an African American incarcerated when he helped the 1994 Crime Bill? Listening to politicians claiming to be tough on crime calling you a super-predator? Don’t trust me…listen to Sanders and his de-construction of Biden during the nomination debates.
Pinning the fallout of Libya on Biden? Deluded like the QAnon. And when you have to go back to 1994 to try to make a point about his character today, you know you’ve lost the argument.
Btw, are you aware of Trump’s military record? He holds the record for the largest number of bombing raids of any president since Vietnam and he has threatened nations with annihilation. And with what he and the GOP are doing to the environment, there won’t be any country or people to protect after they are finished.
(Biden) won’t be able to initiate any substantial legislation…no Biden-Care, no Biden-Green-Deal.
How can he do good when you say he is, in your words, “the proven evil”? You can’t have it both ways.
LT, you lose the argument when you cherry-picking facts.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/09/america-dropped-26171-bombs-2016-obama-legacy
And that is not including either of the Iraq Wars. Even before 2003, under Bill Clinton in 1999, the US spent $1 billion dropping bombs in Iraq; in 2000, that number was up to $1.4 billion.
As for referring to Biden being incapable of any effective reform i mention it to disillusion those left progressives who insist it is easier under Biden. I have also said on this thread if you care to go further back, that even with a Congress majority, Biden will not pass the Justice Democrat agenda and he would have Republican allies to oppose it. After all, it was not Trump who said, if M4A came to the Oval Office, i will veto it.
And regards Libya, can you refer me to any protest at the policy of regime change from Biden at the time. I’ll ignore the QAnon slur.
Then i’m chastised for bringing up Biden’s role in passing a racially-based crime law. OK, his pick for VP is a former State Attorney who herself had a reputation for conducting draconian prosecution practices.
Finally, it was Bush who walked away from the Kyoto Treaty, if you recall.
Do you equate Bush with Trump who did annihilate a nation on the greatest of lies that makes Trump’s deceit insignificant.
Leon,
We know now that in di-party states the left and the right wrestle in the elusive and imagined centre. Oscillating power between the Democrat and the Republican (compromising and complimenting) leads to an antagonist show – and it is a performance for a centre: things go on as usual after any capital election (it is an impossible for the master narrative and the signifying practice of capitalism to change itself).
We can and yet can’t have it both ways: as either/or is more of the same. There will be poverty no matter who wins, and in the long history, this is a constant, it is a c, that is tied and unchanging.
Vote for the lesser or the greater, or withhold your vote- if we argue over it, imagine how conflicted the States must be?
Could either of their presidencies lead to an acceleration of the class struggle: revealing to a divided nation that capital di-partisan states is the same idea but differing masks?
The ethical statement of capital contestants should be: “…For the status quo…” and cast your vote, and go back to work, if you have a job left.
… And while the workers go back to work, or seek it… the regime will still drop $$$s of bombs and decide the pittance to be spent on health care. It is not fascism it is ‘under new management’ and under “old management’ for the new centre is informed by its old centre.
L.B
124 questions were put to voters this year in 32 US states and DC
New Jersey, Arizona, South Dakota and Montana approved legalised marijuana for recreational use, and South Dakota and Mississippi approved the drug’s use for medical purposes. Magic mushrooms, was approved by Oregon for therapeutic use. Washington DC voters approved Initiative 81, which directs police to rank “entheogenic plants and fungi,” including psilocybin and mescaline, among its lowest enforcement priorities.
Florida approved a measure to amend the state constitution to gradually increase its $8.56 per hour minimum wage to $15 by 30 September 2026.
California approved to exempt ride-share and delivery drivers from a state law that makes them employees, not contractors.
Colorado voters rejected a measure to ban abortions. In Louisiana, voters approved an amendment that makes clear that the state constitution does not protect abortion rights or funding for abortions.
Ranked-choice voting, which lets voters select state and federal candidates in order of preference, was rejected by Massachusetts voters. In Alaska a similar proposition is still to be called.(Only Maine lets its voters use the method statewide.)
California approved a measure to restore the right to vote to parolees convicted of felonies.
Also in California, a proposal to roll back a portion of the state’s landmark Proposition 13 law limiting property taxes was too close to call on Wednesday. The measure, Proposition 15 on the state’s 2020 ballot, would leave in place protections for residential properties but raise taxes on commercial properties worth more than $3m.
Jonathan Cook on Biden
“Sleepy Joe’s task is to put liberal America back to sleep”
ELECTION 2020: ‘Sleepy Joe’s’ Task Is to Put Liberal America Back to Sleep
Trump channels Americans’ frustration and anger at a political and economic system they rightly see as failing them. He articulates who should be falsely blamed for their woes: be it immigrants, minorities, socialists, or the New World Order. He offers justified, if misdirected, rage …And among Trump’s supporters too, there are many desperate for wholesale change. They voted for Trump because at least he paid lip service to change…If Biden becomes president, his victory will be a temporary win for torpor, for complacency. But a new Trump will emerge soon enough to potentise – and misdirect – the fury steadily building beneath the surface. If we let it, the pendulum will swing back and forth, between ineffectual lethargy and ineffectual rage..,
Chris Hedges
Well, it’s over. Not the election. The capitalist democracy. However biased it was towards the interests of the rich and however hostile it was to the poor and minorities, the capitalist democracy at least offered the possibility of incremental and piecemeal reform. Now it is a corpse…The oligarchs always win. The people always lose. It does not matter who sits in the White House. America is a failed state.
An interesting aside on American behavioural motivators when it comes to voting habits.
“In one of the study samples, altruism accounts for 44% of the underlying motivation and personal duty accounts for 23%. Meanwhile, selfish motives account for only 13%. Individuals explain their voting motives as centered on doing well by others and their causes and by their own ethical commitments—their selfish consumption concerns play a very minor role.”
Interesting that self reports of ‘selfish voting’ is 13%! Tapping into the duty and altruism markers can hold potential for a socialist message.
Some of the statistical formulas in the article are esoteric but don’t let it put you off.
Further to ALB’s earlier link to Richard Wolff’s perspective on the election, he has this article on Counterpunch
Why Capitalism Was Destined to Come Out on Top in the 2020 Election
“No matter who “won” the U.S. election, what will not change is the capitalist organization of the country’s economy. The great majority of enterprises will continue to be owned and operated by a small minority of Americans. They will continue to use their positions atop the capitalist system to expand their wealth, “economize their labor costs,” and thereby deepen the United States’ inequalities of wealth and income. The employer class will continue to use its wealth to buy, control, and shape the nation’s politics to prevent the employee class from challenging their ownership and operation of the economic system. Indeed, for a very long time, they have made sure that (1) only two political parties dominate the government and (2) both enthusiastically commit to preserving and supporting the capitalist system. For capitalism, the question of which party wins matters only to how capitalism will be supported, not whether that support will be a top governmental priority.”
But then Wolff returns to his pet hobby-horse
“…A new political party that offered systemic criticisms of capitalism and advocated for a transition to a worker-coop based economic system would bring real choice into U.S. politics. It would place before the electorate a basic question of vital importance: what mix of capitalist and worker-coop organized enterprises do you wish to work for, buy from, and live with in the United States?… The social movements, labor unions, and the new socialist initiatives need to coalesce into a broad, new socialist party. If that party could also become the political voice of a growing worker-coop sector of the economy, many key conditions for a transition beyond capitalism will have been achieved.”
Alan,
It is more of the same rhetor, the co-op is a cardinal synonym for capital modes of production: it reminds me of ‘the best form of welfare is a job’… or ‘own your own welfare”.
Co-ops are small ‘c’ capitalist formations- and mime their formations on their use of ownership- yes between small producers, but between members of the co-op. If you are not in you are not captured by its benefits.
The new political party (a joined up socialism Wolff advocates) will play the same tropes, and share the crumbs between its members… the best welfare?
“If that party could also become the political voice of a growing worker-coop”: and this sounds like another version of an elite speaking on behalf of those who could well speak for themselves. Elect a leader to express the diverse voices, who in turn, coagulates that chorus of voices into a singular ‘what is best for yo’ narrative that they deem is best for them.
Biden, Trump or the reanimated Lincoln (brought out of cold storage) make the fatal insistence: we are for the people, as long as we decide according to our best interests (the few over the many)… or any capital centred democracy will have the same fatal link to Locke- a small few are enlightened, get enlightenment and capital, then you are in a position of decidability…
LT, you lose the argument when you cherry-picking facts. – alan
You haven’t a clue what you are talking about when it comes to presidents of the US and their military action while in office. It’s obvious by your omissions of what Trump has done.
In his first three years, Trump dropped over 72,000 bombs, a record that no president has come close to since Vietnam. In the worst month, March 2017, it’s estimated the Trump administration killed 1,881 civilians. In contrast, President Barack Obama’s bloodiest month, July 2016, claimed the lives of 312. For Trump, 2017 was an explosive year: The U.S. has said it dropped over 2,400 bombs on Afghanistan, up from 1,337 in 2016. In the fight against ISIS in Iraq and Syria, the U.S. has already dropped 32,801 bombs, compared with 30,743 in 2016. And the U.S. has also conducted more than 100 strikes against Al Qaeda in Yemen in 2017, compared with 38 in 2016. Under Trump, deadly drone strikes have increased 432 percent over the reprehensible pace set by his predecessor.
it was Bush who walked away from the Kyoto Treaty,
Red herring. Stay on topic. Trump walked away from the Paris Treaty. Biden will reinstate the Paris Treaty on day one.
his pick for VP is a former State Attorney who herself had a reputation for conducting draconian prosecution practices.
Harris has received criticism for some of her actions as attorney general, especially regarding criminal justice reform, which some see as contradictory to more liberal ideals. During the primary, other candidates pushed her to defend policies enacted while she was AG, such as a hardline stance on marijuana, that disproportionately affected communities of color. Since becoming a senator, Harris has changed her stance on marijuana in particular. In 2019, while announcing a bill to decriminalize the possession of marijuana on a federal level Harris said, “Times have changed — marijuana should not be a crime.”After six years as California’s attorney general, Harris was elected to the US Senate in 2016. Since then, she has co-sponsored bills aligned with many liberal causes including expanding gun control measures and passing “Medicare for All.” Harris has also voted against many Trump nominees for federal judgeships and top positions inside his administration.In 2019, GovTrack, a non-partisan organization that tracks bills in Congress, ranked Harris as the “most liberal compared to All Senators.” One measure the organization uses is comparing how many bipartisan bills each senator cosponsors to how many bills they co-sponsored in total. Harris had the lowest at 15% in 2019.Try again trumper, but stay on topic this time.“Stay on topic” is a sound argument LT.
All the threads in the forum point to a change: socialism as the logical and material next step. Trump or Biden… coins of capital.
“Try again trumper, but stay on topic this time.”
If you could slow down your keyboard for a while- what you wrote sounds odd, almost an elitist throw away comment that a malcontent might use. I could be wrong, but are you also linking AJ to Trump- how do you construct your narratives (all who disagree with you are placed in the same hat)? You have a really big hat to make that statement.
As i said, you cherry pick stats.
Trump’s Record on Foreign Policy: Lost Wars, New Conflicts and Broken Promises
Trump’s policy of bombing was a continuance of Obama’s.
Obama set a new post-World War II record for U.S. military spending, at $5.67 trillion over eight years (in 2020 dollars) including Obama’s $1.2 trillion plan to “modernize” U.S. nuclear weapons.
But to be absolutely clear, i’m in no way absolving Trump of his murderous military strategy…i simply wish to point out that what he has done is no worse and no better than his predecessors. I don’t want you to go away thinking that i am whitewashing Trumps atrocities in Syria or Iraq. I merely say it has been the same old same. Trump is not an exception.
I have tried to track down your 72,000 in three years claim. I cannot find a reliable source, just various fringe websites and blogs. Perhaps you can give me the authoritative study those are based upon.
2-term Bush’s military dropped 70,000 bombs on five countries. 2-term Obama dropped 100,000 bombs in seven countries. In his final year of office Obama dropped over 26,000 bombs.
And it is as you say Trump dropped more than either of those presidents with incredible civilian casualties in places like Raqqa
“Our analysis is at odds with her documented pre-Congress career of being pragmatic or moderate,” explained Josh Tauberer, GovTrack founder “and it remains to be seen which part of her career — her actions as a district attorney and Attorney General or her policy proposals in Congress — would be reflected greater in a Biden administration.”
So we shall wait and see, won’t we?
Lunacy. Trump is re-elected and life becomes exponentially worse for labour, not to mention the planet. Your argument is that “if I don’t get my way, I’m not voting”. Let me say to you that you will never get your way and you will always have the enemy in power with that juvenile attitude, at least in the US. Time to grow up.
Nice try at completely evading the point LT and then you have the nerve to call AJ a “Trumper” for attacking the so called Democrats and their record in office. As if we dont equally attack Trump and all other representatives of capitalism.
The irony is that it is with attitudes such as the one you have expressed here that we will always have the enemy in power. The “enemy” is capitalism and its ruling class and here you are openly soliciting support for one faction of its ruling class, Wall Street’s favourite son – Joe Biden.
Of course we will “never get our way” – bring about socialism – while fellow workers like you continue to succumb to this pathetic self-defeating lesser evil argument you peddle here. This is a merry-go-round going nowhere which you want us to remain perpetually stuck on. Lesser evils ALWAYS prepare the ground for greater evils to emerge in due course and vice versa. That is the nature of capitalist politics: it is cyclical. That is because all capitalist politicians will inevitably fail to serve the interests of the working class and will inevitably disillusion and disenchant their supporters. You can’t operate capitalism in any other way.
So it looks like you’ve got the capitalist government you’ve wanted LT. It seems very likely that Biden will indeed shortly become the next President. I hope you are thrilled at the prospect
Trump will disappear into the history books but what of the workers under a Biden capitalist regime? Why do you think millions upon millions of them have just supported Trump for whatever deluded reason? They voted for Trump because they were screwed over by the previous Democratic Party regime (they would have been equally screwed over had it been the Republicans in power)
And so the merry-go-round will continue going round. A Biden government will simply prepare the ground for another populist Trump-like figure to emerge as workers become increasing disillusioned with Biden as they assuredly will.
Make no mistake about it – you are contributing to this farce of perpetuating capitalism by your support of the apparent less-evil option . Come back in four years when hopefully you will have learnt the lesson that it had all been a complete waste of time, when the merry-go-round goes round one more time and some Trump Mark two figure assumes power
You, LT, and others who think like you will have to bear a direct responsibility for that outcome by voting now for what you consider to be the lesser evil
“An interesting aside on American behavioural motivators when it comes to voting habits.“In one of the study samples, altruism accounts for 44% of the underlying motivation and personal duty accounts for 23%. Meanwhile, selfish motives account for only 13%. Individuals explain their voting motives as centered on doing well by others and their causes and by their own ethical commitments—their selfish consumption concerns play a very minor role.”
I thought the article was going to be about what motivated people to vote in a particular way but it’s actually about why people (say) they vote. A quite different matter.
If 44% say they voted the way they did — Democrat or Republican or whatever— to benefit others rather than themselves there must a lot of hypocrites around ! Most people will vote out for a particular party because they believe that it will benefit them. Nothing wrong with that (except that their belief is mistaken). In fact, that is why we are expecting workers to vote for socialism in the end — because it’s in their personal interest.
On the other hand, I can’t think of why 13% would go and vote for a selfish reason. A few might because they are the candidate or because they have been bribed or to curry favour with somebody. In countries like Australia where voting is compulsory fear of being fined for not voting would be another, but that doesn’t apply in the US.
All the same, the question of why people bother to vote is worth investigating. In Tuesday’s election two-thirds of the electorate are estimated to have voted; which means that two-thirds didn’t — more than voted for either Biden or Trump. In fact “none of the above” won (as in frequently the case).
Most of these will be people who have learned from experience that whoever gets in makes no difference to them and have concluded that “they are all the same” and “that changing governments changes nothing”. Correctly, as this is the case.
The problem, then, is why do two-thirds bother to vote in face of the fact that the outcome doesn’t make any difference to them? Some might do so to express their view that voting is the best way to settle arguments and that if you don’t vote then this risks being taken away. (Incidentally, we are in this category as we insist on going to vote even if we don’t cast a valid ballot, to show that the vote could be used as an “instrument of emancipation”.) I suppose this could be classed as voting out of “duty” or “civic responsibility” and is understandable, even praise-worthy.
The argument that you should vote (whichever way) because the right to vote is something workers and other groups struggled to obtain is a valid one. But I still don’t see where altruism comes into it.
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