A Real Democracy by direct voting

[Anonymous]

kenax wrote:

thank you for the nice words Robbo. i guess socialism got the most bad wrap because of the capitalists who bought into media and helped propagate the red scare, to encourage people to embrace capitalism as some sort of gauntlet of freedom while communism represents repression (which it did).meanwhile, in communist russia, they basically used the same tactics but limited their pictures of the west to the worst slums. i remember when my parents finally brought their grandparents to the west and they were utterly amazed at the massive stockpile of food in your average grocery store. in any case, i'm still curious about practical implementation. for example, at one point it was said it could not exist if any country adopted capitalism. this would require a worldwide revolution, and i doubt it wouldn't be bloody. i would think it would be a good idea to lay out some sort of a "ten point plan" of how this is supposed to come about. perhaps start on a grass roots level, perhaps akin to the Hamish in north Alberta, Canada, who for religious reasons don't want electricity or any of the gadgets and just live together like a community in kibutz style. if enough of such communities were built from the ground up, with grassroots interest, then i could imagine a world transition/revolution could take place. secondly, even if this first stage was successful, i still do not understand how the day to day functionality would work. running several online business, i guess i look at things from a practical perspective. let me explain. first of all, i am a one man show. i taught myself programming, web design, search engine optimisation and many things. i do not have any employees, so i guess i could be considered as one "owning the means to production". because of my webpages customers write to me asking me to organise boat tours for them. i pick someone who is available, and after they confirm their availability and interest, and after the customer pays the deposit (my remuneration if all goes well), i send to the customer the contact detail to the boatman and they take care of the rest. so the boatmen are basically freelancers like myself and are free to turn down any offers. like when i was translating for the past 25 years before i found this "job". what i don't understand is how my service could possibly exist in a moneyless society. why should i bother with all the effort if i could just go fishing and grow my own vegetables on this lovely little remote island i live on in the Philippines? why would the boatman bother hosting the guests if he doesn't feel he'll get a larger lcd movie screen out of it, or possibly larger boat? who's going to pay for the gas? it seems that your system of presuming everyone is going to work voluntarily will inevitably turn into blocks and blocks of people waiting for the next ration of toilet paper. and i cannot imagine a service like mine even existing (except perhaps for the ruling elite, as they always seem to crop up like mushrooms after rain, no matter what system is devised).again, i do not wish to be cynical or negative or provocative, but this discussion truly does interest me. Endnote: actually, speaking of the Philippines, i imagine it quite may have been your socialistic ideal before the Spaniards came, who invaded the 7,107 islands and conglomerated the many tribes under the name of King Philip of Spain at the time so that it could incorporate the region into the system of world colonial rule by the europeans, them fighting against one another and plundering the world's resources for their advantage in competition. Even on the island where i live, most of the people are simple fishermen, living from the ocean and land. all these tribes probably lived in harmony, different tribes populating different beaches or islands, everyone here is so relax its not funny. they might have been happy going on like that a thousand or more years. but if the world was like that, i doubt there would be any smartphones or the technologyy that represents such convenience for us, for better or for worse. In any case, i'm placing my faith in 3d printers and technology to free us from the tyranny of the capitalists. definitely think we live in very interesting times.

You continue using the expression of Communist RussiaYour arguments since the first post sounds familiar to me, like the arguments of another person that also post in this forum under a different pseudonymous

[kenax]

nope, here for the first time. my name is Karel Kosman and my company's name is kenax, which i usually use as a username. you can search on the web for those names and you will see they are connected. i was merely trying to get the word out about my direct democracy site and thought it might be a useful tool for socialism as well. along the way got caught up in a good discussion. i plan to read the last two suggested articles. my main motivation is i've grown sick of the system and wars and just throwing in my two cents to try and make a positive change.

[Bijou Drains]

kenax wrote:

nope, here for the first time. my name is Karel Kosman and my company's name is kenax, which i usually use as a username. you can search on the web for those names and you will see they are connected. i was merely trying to get the word out about my direct democracy site and thought it might be a useful tool for socialism as well. along the way got caught up in a good discussion. i plan to read the last two suggested articles. my main motivation is i've grown sick of the system and wars and just throwing in my two cents to try and make a positive change.

And just to say Karel that it is good to have discussions with people who are genuinely interested in exploring our ideas. The World Socialist has a long history of putting our ideas out in the public forum for discussionJust to add a little to that. You say that direct democracy is a good idea for the administration of what could be termed the "political" decisions which effect every one, why do we need to limit democracy to the political, who not expand that to the economic sphere.Why shouldn't the whole world's population be involved in deciding what happens to the whole world's economic resources.The car plants, mines and factories were not built by the individuals who now "own" them, they were built by many thousands and millions of people, the mines and the railway  lines, the power stations and the hospitals were the product of the many, why should their output and services not be controlled and directed by the many, rather than the few, who through the theft, violence and the threat of violence of their ancestors, through the expropriation of the wages system, through the modern day casino of the stock exchange, lay claim to the common product of all mankind?In short what is good for political decisions, must be good for economic decisions.To add to that our model of democratic control is reflected in what I believe to be the most democratic movement in the world, which was established by our founding members in 1904. You are welcome to examine any decision or discussion about decisions our party has made since its founding, we have no secret meetings, no unrepresentative cabals, no leaders, no hidden agendas. If you have the desire you can come to any of our meetings or conferences, executive committee meetings, etc. Nothing is hidden, all is open for discussion

[kenax]

nope, never said that this tool needs to be limited to political decisions. it's just a discussion and voting mechanism and can be applied to anything. unfortunately i now live in the philippines but perhaps next summer will make a brief visit to the UK to visit my cousin in London while on my way to Czech, perhaps i could squeeze in a visit to one of your meetings. thank you for the discussions.

[kenax]

checked outhttp://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/pamphlets/capitalism-socialism-how-we-live-and-how-we-could-live#5and just thought i'd  mention that your table of content links at the beginning is not working properly because all those links have #1 at the end, meaning they link always to the first chapter. 

[Anonymous]

Quote:

and just thought i'd  mention that your table of content links at the beginning is not working properly because all those links have #1 at the end, meaning they link always to the first chapter.

Yes . Thanks. I have removed them. There is a PDF link now at the top.  Scroll to the bottom and you can get a PDF version.This link might do it .http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/printpdf/3733

[alanjjohnstone]

"otherwise we get line-ups several blocks long just for toilet paper."Just on that toilet paper comment, by coincidence this is in the newshttp://www.bbc.com/news/business-43195467Taiwan retailers have seen a rush on toilet paper over the weekend, as word spread of an imminent sharp price rise. Shoppers used social media to post pictures of empty shelves where the product would usually be.

[Anonymous]

alanjjohnstone wrote:

"otherwise we get line-ups several blocks long just for toilet paper."Just on that toilet paper comment, by coincidence this is in the newshttp://www.bbc.com/news/business-43195467Taiwan retailers have seen a rush on toilet paper over the weekend, as word spread of an imminent sharp price rise. Shoppers used social media to post pictures of empty shelves where the product would usually be.

That is only a  defamatory propaganda made against socialism by right-wingers from Miami due to the scarcity of toilet paper that existed in Venezuela, and they applied the same lie to all the so-called socialist countries,  but they did not say that the US has imposed an embargo on Venezuela and the retailers were holding the merchandise.In Puerto Rico peoples are making lines for everything including to go to the toilet, they are making lines to get water, lines to get groceries, lines to get gasoline, and kerosene, they are using battery-powered radio, and there is a big scarcity of batteries for small electronics appliances, there is no internet and electricity,   The island has a colonial embargo enacted under the Jones Act similar to the one imposed on Cuba, and the final decision must be made by the US Congress, and it was lifted by a few days during the Hurricane. 

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