Socialist Utopia/What and How?
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Realistically how can we ge the ball rolling in this life? instead of waiting for the self destruction of capitalism and the ensuing chaos. Instead of waiting around like vultures to pick up the pieces and all fighting for our own way to be enforced, surely we need to be putting the power of change in the peoples' hands NOW.
So you are assuming here that we all agree on this Vin? What's more have you considered what everyone outside of this group thinks? if you only have a party opinion then sure, i can find that on your link. thanks.
I posted before I finished. Fair enough, if you have read some of the party's articles
How would Socialism be established?Socialism can only become possible when a majority are aware of its implications, want it and are prepared to work for it peacefully and democratically. Socialism can not be forced upon people. As its establishment depends upon majority understanding and a global democratic effort to bring it to fruition, we envisage people the world over using their votes to elect socialist candidates to political office. Once enough Socialists had been elected to office this would be a clear signal that a majority wanted socialism. HAHAHA good luck on that then. There are no socialist parties that will cut it. it seems to me we're waiting for uttter devastation first in the hope that people will give us a vote in desperation as capitalism has caused such utter suffering. i'd rather not wait til then thanks. I'd rather be a bit more forward thinking of the hear and now.
JoanOfArc wrote:How would Socialism be established?Socialism can only become possible when a majority are aware of its implications, want it and are prepared to work for it peacefully and democratically. Socialism can not be forced upon people. As its establishment depends upon majority understanding and a global democratic effort to bring it to fruition, we envisage people the world over using their votes to elect socialist candidates to political office. Once enough Socialists had been elected to office this would be a clear signal that a majority wanted socialism. HAHAHA good luck on that then. There are no socialist parties that will cut it. it seems to me we're waiting for uttter devastation first in the hope that people will give us a vote in desperation as capitalism has caused such utter suffering. i'd rather not wait til then thanks. I'd rather be a bit more forward thinking of the hear and now.The 'here and now' is what we need to deal with but state capitalism has been tried. The SPGB said state capitalism would fail and it did.State capitalism is still capitalism and If you support capitalism then it will not 'collapse'.
Engels saw state capitalism as providing the tools for socialism. state capitalism in a captialist society has never been tried before where it is purely for profits that are churned directly back into the system for the common good. i do not mean forced takeovers…… please if you will Vin, can you give me an example of state owned profit making enterprise competing against big business.thanks if you can, very much appreciated mate. cheers.
JoanOfArc wrote:please if you will Vin, can you give me an example of state owned profit making enterprise competing against big business.thanks if you can, very much appreciated mate. cheers.A state owned profit making enerprise is big business.I was a miner when the mines were owned by the state. If we went on strike for safer working conditions, the state starved us back to work and its uniformed bully boys beat us with trungeons.State owned enterprises are owned collectively by the ruling class and run in its interests"The executive of the modern state is but a committee for managing the common affairs of the whole bourgeoisie."Marx
Vin wrote:JoanOfArc wrote:please if you will Vin, can you give me an example of state owned profit making enterprise competing against big business.thanks if you can, very much appreciated mate. cheers.A state owned profit making enerprise is big business.I was a miner when the mines were owned by the state. If we went on strike for safer working conditions, the state starved us back to work and its uniformed bully boys beat us with trungeons.State owned enterprises are owned collectively by the ruling class and run in its interests"The executive of the modern state is but a committee for managing the common affairs of the whole bourgeoisie."Marx
but i don't see what the problem initially is with making profit for the common good. surely the ruling classes won't like it? surely it will be for the people and not the richest?
if the people allowed (for they have the power to change things with their consumer spend) for it to happen, then wealth would get redistributed.but it'll be the people that decide with their spending power so if you spend on state manufactured and produced goods and services then the profit goes back into your schools, pays for your education, the NHS, local community art centres, to the vulnerable and those in need of support. the state, if the people let it, would get richer and richer.i also believe in being self sufficient as a nation where possible. as keynes, the economist, said later in his life when he wrote a paper about national self sufficiency where reasonable.
Friedrich Engels, in Socialism: Utopian and Scientific, argued that state ownership does not do away with capitalism by itself, but rather would be the final stage of capitalism, consisting of ownership and management of large-scale production and communication by the bourgeois state. He argued that the tools for ending capitalism are found in state capitalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_capitalism
p.s. pleased and proud to bump into an ex miner here…………that might sound daft………. but i just am…. (pleased to meet you Vin, not daft haha)
JoanOfArc wrote:Engels saw state capitalism as providing the tools for socialism. state capitalism in a capitalist society has never been tried before where it is purely for profits that are churned directly back into the system for the common good. i do not mean forced takeovers…… please if you will Vin, can you give me an example of state owned profit making enterprise competing against big business.thanks if you can, very much appreciated mate. cheers.It was Lenin, and he borrowed the idea or the concept from Nikolai Bukharin, and he also absurdly indicated that it was for the benefits of the working class. Since when capitalism has been beneficial for the working class ? . The first intent and realization of state capitalism was the Soviet Union
JoanOfArc wrote:Friedrich Engels, in Socialism: Utopian and Scientific, argued that state ownership does not do away with capitalism by itself, but rather would be the final stage of capitalism, consisting of ownership and management of large-scale production and communication by the bourgeois state. He argued that the tools for ending capitalism are found in state capitalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_capitalismCan you show any paragraph, or citation of Engels indicating that state capitalism will end capitalism ?
mcolome1 wrote:JoanOfArc wrote:Friedrich Engels, in Socialism: Utopian and Scientific, argued that state ownership does not do away with capitalism by itself, but rather would be the final stage of capitalism, consisting of ownership and management of large-scale production and communication by the bourgeois state. He argued that the tools for ending capitalism are found in state capitalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_capitalismCan you show any paragraph, or citation of Engels indicating that state capitalism will end capitalism ?
well i think it's clear from this paragraph that no he did not think that state capitalism on its own would end capitalism. he did though, think it would provide the tools.Norway, singapore and China have a strand of state capitalism and it seems pretty successful.but no it's not the be all and end all, for sure. it's more a means to an end.
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