The Religion thing
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As some know I’m a fairly new member. Upon joining I asked about a few of the party’s policies. The policy about excluding those who believe in a god was one of those which I don’t feel I’ve received a satisfactory reason for. This issue isn’t something I feel particularly strongly about but I am unable to defend the party’s position if I do not know the reasons why. So I hope someone can help to explain it to me.
Thanks
Hi Ed. The resources are all here my friend. Try this link for a copy of the old pamphlet with new introduction by Adam Buick, whom you have met and I am sure will make further comment (!)…
http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/pamphlets/socialism-and-religionI’ve not read the whole thing yet, one point I would raise is that religion is a product of and sustained by class society. So it will remain until we abolish it’s causes. But before the causes of religion can be abolished we need a majority of workers to want socialism. So can we expect workers to stop being theists before we can remove the reasons that they are theists?
No, I don’t think the logic is correct there. People can and are still drawn to socialism and socialist conclusions whilst having religious or spiritual beliefs. Logically after educating themselves through scientific and socialist thinking and understanding, they will draw their own conclusions on the fallacy of religion. Some may not lose their religion overnight, but personal spiritual belief does not exclude socialist thought although it may appear to be completely contradictory on the surface.Once the mass of people start to understand what socialism is about they will naturally question their own beliefs anyway, if they aren’t already.
If so then do you accept that someone can be a socialist while still holding theistic or spiritual beliefs? Most theists who are not fundementalist nutjobs accept scientific evidence which goes against previously held religious beliefs, evolution being the prime example. So yes I agree that a theist can draw the same conclusions as anyone else from scientific evidence. Therefore someone could recognize their belief in a deity as just that a belief with no supporting evidence while simultaneously accepting a Marxist critique of capitalism as scientific fact.
The Socialist Party takes a non-theistic, materialist approach to things, in particular to society and social change. Religious people believe in the existence of at least one supernatural entity that intervenes in nature and human affairs. Socialists hold that we only live once. Religious people believe in some sort of after-life. Clearly, the two positions are incompatible.
Just to re-iterate gnome’s point. We need people that realise that the way society is structured is the result of peoples actions as they come together to produce the material things they need to exist, nothing more and nothing less. Belief in some super-natural force that steers it all would be counterproductive to say the least.
Ed wrote:…religion is a product of and sustained by class societyActually that’s probably not quite right, I would have thought primtive hunter-gatherering people (i.e before the advent of private property and class society) would have had some type of religion, though perhaps someone can correct me.
Ed wrote:someone could recognize their belief in a deity as just that a belief with no supporting evidenceI’m not sure if this is quite the case either. Most religious people will point to something to support their belief, even if it is just some vauge mystic ‘feeling’, religious experience or ‘miracle’.I’m not sure that a person that believes in anything without evidence would make a good party member anyhow. We need people who can critically understand the world and not get led along by conmen with their own agendas.
Belief in God plummets among Youthhttp://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/06/belief-in-god-plummets-millenials.php?ref=fpnewsfeed
Gnome wrote: “Belief in God plummets among Youth,” and provided the link. Believe in God should not be confused with religion. To see my justification of this go to: http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/forum/general-discussion/endless-feuds-between-theists-and-atheistsMore specifically, I wrote: “My purpose here is to address conceptual conflicts between theists and atheists, avoiding the word ‘religion.’ To discuss religion, one would have to address differences between religions, political exploitation of theism and atheism, and much more. Such important topics are certainly worth addressing, but not in a short essay.”This thread is very interesting and i will be glad to elaborate. Conflicts between theists and atheists are dangerous. That is I think that the NOMA idea, formulated by a biologist, S.J. Gould, is worth promoting. Ludwik Kowalski (see Wikipedia)
DJP wrote:I’m not sure that a person that believes in anything without evidence would make a good party member anyhow. We need people who can critically understand the world and not get led along by conmen with their own agendas.I understand your point but that in itself is not quite true either. Science and the scientific theory has people who perhaps believe in things without proof, but they set out to find that evidence. Most ideas and theories are just that: belief in something without evidence. The scientific method then sets out to find and document that evidence to establish the belief as fact, before reviewing the evidence with peers who may try and provide evidence to disprove it at first until some accepted understanding is regarded as fact.I think the difference between this and religion, is that nothing moves beyond the belief part and to that end it is wrong and open to abuse as noted. However, belief in something without evidence is not of itself a guide to a person being a poor Party member; it is their understanding and ability to put that belief to test and to keep it in context I would say. I mean it could be argued that we all believe in Socialism but we have no evidence other than theory to suggest it works……
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